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	<title>Comments on: Say What Now?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/</link>
	<description>Covering the MLB with a focus on the Toronto Blue Jays</description>
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		<title>By: Evan White</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44235</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44235</guid>
		<description>MW: &quot;The DH is part of baseball history.&quot;

That&#039;s true. So are bullpen catchers abd middle relievers and pinch-hitters. And the Hall should recognize them - just not as a fully fledged Hall of Fame member.
As far as me being in the minority opinion on the inclusion of closers (or any other failed starters) in the Hall, that&#039;s just not true. From a recent column from Rob Neyer:

&quot;About relief pitchers, anyway. I&#039;ve been as vocal as anyone about the relative value of relievers, and I could make the argument that Hoyt Wilhelm (because of all the innings) and Mariano Rivera (because of all the Octobers) are the only relievers who belong in the Hall of Fame.&quot;

There&#039;s no reason why the Hall can&#039;t recognize these specialists without enshrining them as full Mickey Mantle/Walter Johnson/Andre Dawson (heh) members.

MW:  I don&#039;t understand why you have such an issue with DHs, but we&#039;re going to have to agree to disagree here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MW: &#8220;The DH is part of baseball history.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s true. So are bullpen catchers abd middle relievers and pinch-hitters. And the Hall should recognize them &#8211; just not as a fully fledged Hall of Fame member.<br />
As far as me being in the minority opinion on the inclusion of closers (or any other failed starters) in the Hall, that&#8217;s just not true. From a recent column from Rob Neyer:</p>
<p>&#8220;About relief pitchers, anyway. I&#8217;ve been as vocal as anyone about the relative value of relievers, and I could make the argument that Hoyt Wilhelm (because of all the innings) and Mariano Rivera (because of all the Octobers) are the only relievers who belong in the Hall of Fame.&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no reason why the Hall can&#8217;t recognize these specialists without enshrining them as full Mickey Mantle/Walter Johnson/Andre Dawson (heh) members.</p>
<p>MW:  I don&#8217;t understand why you have such an issue with DHs, but we&#8217;re going to have to agree to disagree here.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Pagan</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44167</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Pagan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44167</guid>
		<description>MW: Well, except that guys like Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Al Oliver and even Warren Cromartie knew how to take a walk. Stunningly, under the same managers.

You are making a large qualitative assumption that these players &quot;knew how to take a walk.&quot;  In fact, all you know is that they had a higher on-base percentage. 

You are taking quantitative statistical analysis and using it to make a qualitative assumption about a player based on comparing one statistical category. 

Looking back, maybe the Expos were better off with Sixto Lezcano or Ruppert Jones in right field all those years, because those guys took three more walks than Dawson every 100 at-bats.

MW:  Now you&#039;re taking the argument to an absurd level (though thank you for mentioning Sixto Lezcano, maybe the best name ever).  You had said that perhaps the reason Dawson didn&#039;t walk much was because his managers told him not to, but that argument would seem to be dismissed by the fact that other players on the same team, under the same managers, did walk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MW: Well, except that guys like Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Al Oliver and even Warren Cromartie knew how to take a walk. Stunningly, under the same managers.</p>
<p>You are making a large qualitative assumption that these players &#8220;knew how to take a walk.&#8221;  In fact, all you know is that they had a higher on-base percentage. </p>
<p>You are taking quantitative statistical analysis and using it to make a qualitative assumption about a player based on comparing one statistical category. </p>
<p>Looking back, maybe the Expos were better off with Sixto Lezcano or Ruppert Jones in right field all those years, because those guys took three more walks than Dawson every 100 at-bats.</p>
<p>MW:  Now you&#8217;re taking the argument to an absurd level (though thank you for mentioning Sixto Lezcano, maybe the best name ever).  You had said that perhaps the reason Dawson didn&#8217;t walk much was because his managers told him not to, but that argument would seem to be dismissed by the fact that other players on the same team, under the same managers, did walk.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44163</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 15:56:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44163</guid>
		<description>Sorry I didn&#039;t spell it out.  If McGwire plays his entire career clean, I don&#039;t think his numbers would be any better than Fred McGriffs.

MW:  No one will ever know.  Of course, no one really knows if Fred McGriff played his entire career clean, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry I didn&#8217;t spell it out.  If McGwire plays his entire career clean, I don&#8217;t think his numbers would be any better than Fred McGriffs.</p>
<p>MW:  No one will ever know.  Of course, no one really knows if Fred McGriff played his entire career clean, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44152</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44152</guid>
		<description>Yeah and we all know the reason for that.  Like I said, without the juice, he is Fred McGriff at best!!

MW:  Huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah and we all know the reason for that.  Like I said, without the juice, he is Fred McGriff at best!!</p>
<p>MW:  Huh?</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Pagan</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44144</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Pagan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44144</guid>
		<description>MW: I understand the whole “he may have been raised differently” argument, but how does that explain the fact that his contemporary stars like George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson, Rickey Henderson, etc., etc., etc., all understood the value of not getting out?

Those guys didn&#039;t have Jim Fanning or Bill Virdon in their ear telling them to &quot;swing the bat.&quot;

MW:  Well, except that guys like Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Al Oliver and even Warren Cromartie knew how to take a walk.  Stunningly, under the same managers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MW: I understand the whole “he may have been raised differently” argument, but how does that explain the fact that his contemporary stars like George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson, Rickey Henderson, etc., etc., etc., all understood the value of not getting out?</p>
<p>Those guys didn&#8217;t have Jim Fanning or Bill Virdon in their ear telling them to &#8220;swing the bat.&#8221;</p>
<p>MW:  Well, except that guys like Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Al Oliver and even Warren Cromartie knew how to take a walk.  Stunningly, under the same managers.</p>
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		<title>By: jays fan from the start</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44125</link>
		<dc:creator>jays fan from the start</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44125</guid>
		<description>hi mike do  think aa well look at chien ming wang somebody he look at do u think its a good idea

MW:  English, please!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi mike do  think aa well look at chien ming wang somebody he look at do u think its a good idea</p>
<p>MW:  English, please!</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44101</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44101</guid>
		<description>yah and nobody hit many homers that year did they?  How&#039;d he do the next few years?  he was almost retired before heading off to St. 
louis for his late career resurgence.  He is a decent power hitter that should never see the hall, end of story.

MW:  Hardly the end of the story.  And I love how revisionist historians will say that McGwire was a &quot;decent&quot; power hitter.  He&#039;s the all-time leader in home runs per at-bat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yah and nobody hit many homers that year did they?  How&#8217;d he do the next few years?  he was almost retired before heading off to St.<br />
louis for his late career resurgence.  He is a decent power hitter that should never see the hall, end of story.</p>
<p>MW:  Hardly the end of the story.  And I love how revisionist historians will say that McGwire was a &#8220;decent&#8221; power hitter.  He&#8217;s the all-time leader in home runs per at-bat.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Pagan</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44090</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Pagan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44090</guid>
		<description>Hey Mike,

One last thought about Dawson . . . 

When Live-Aid was broadcast on July 13, 1985, I made sure to record Billy Ocean singing Caribbean Queen, but didn&#039;t bother recording Ozzy Osborne on my Beta machine . . . During prime time, the ABC network cut in halfway through Led Zeppelin&#039;s reunion and only broadcast  four minutes of Stairway to Heaven, but ABC made sure that Hall &amp; Oates anchored the final hour of the broadcast, with Maneater and Method of Modern Love bringing America to its knees.

In the 1980s, nobody batted an eye that Led Zeppelin opened for Hall &amp; Oates and Tina Turner. Perceptions change over 25 years.

It&#039;s the same with baseball. Using the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein sabermetric statistical analysis of the 2000s to look back on a career from the 1970s and 80s when the game was played AND MANAGED differently might not be fair to Dawson.

Every time Dawson came to the plate for the Expos, he had Jim Fanning or Bill Virdon in his ear telling him he&#039;s there to &quot;swing the bat&quot; and &quot;drive in runs.&quot; It&#039;s how he came up through the minor leagues and the style he adopted in his prime. Perhaps he would have adopted a different approach had he come around 20 years later and worked with people in the era of Gary Denbo and John Gibbons. 

There is no arguing your point that Dawson&#039;s OBP is 20 points lower than any other HOF outfielder. Just pointing out the fact that it was a different &quot;old-school&quot; era and Dawson might have been &quot;raised&quot; differently. The OBP emphasis of the 2000s was not so trendy in the 1980s.

Rather than using the latest sabermetric trends for statistical analysis, BBWAA writers also have the advantage of judging a player against his peers from the same era.

MW:  And against his peers from the same era, Dawson&#039;s OBP is still 20 points lower than any other HOF outfielder.  I understand the whole &quot;he may have been raised differently&quot; argument, but how does that explain the fact that his contemporary stars like George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson, Rickey Henderson, etc., etc., etc., all understood the value of not getting out?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Mike,</p>
<p>One last thought about Dawson . . . </p>
<p>When Live-Aid was broadcast on July 13, 1985, I made sure to record Billy Ocean singing Caribbean Queen, but didn&#8217;t bother recording Ozzy Osborne on my Beta machine . . . During prime time, the ABC network cut in halfway through Led Zeppelin&#8217;s reunion and only broadcast  four minutes of Stairway to Heaven, but ABC made sure that Hall &amp; Oates anchored the final hour of the broadcast, with Maneater and Method of Modern Love bringing America to its knees.</p>
<p>In the 1980s, nobody batted an eye that Led Zeppelin opened for Hall &amp; Oates and Tina Turner. Perceptions change over 25 years.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the same with baseball. Using the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein sabermetric statistical analysis of the 2000s to look back on a career from the 1970s and 80s when the game was played AND MANAGED differently might not be fair to Dawson.</p>
<p>Every time Dawson came to the plate for the Expos, he had Jim Fanning or Bill Virdon in his ear telling him he&#8217;s there to &#8220;swing the bat&#8221; and &#8220;drive in runs.&#8221; It&#8217;s how he came up through the minor leagues and the style he adopted in his prime. Perhaps he would have adopted a different approach had he come around 20 years later and worked with people in the era of Gary Denbo and John Gibbons. </p>
<p>There is no arguing your point that Dawson&#8217;s OBP is 20 points lower than any other HOF outfielder. Just pointing out the fact that it was a different &#8220;old-school&#8221; era and Dawson might have been &#8220;raised&#8221; differently. The OBP emphasis of the 2000s was not so trendy in the 1980s.</p>
<p>Rather than using the latest sabermetric trends for statistical analysis, BBWAA writers also have the advantage of judging a player against his peers from the same era.</p>
<p>MW:  And against his peers from the same era, Dawson&#8217;s OBP is still 20 points lower than any other HOF outfielder.  I understand the whole &#8220;he may have been raised differently&#8221; argument, but how does that explain the fact that his contemporary stars like George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson, Rickey Henderson, etc., etc., etc., all understood the value of not getting out?</p>
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		<title>By: Evan White</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44075</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 00:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44075</guid>
		<description>So, Mike, it&#039;s your view that I need to open my own hall of fame because of my opinion that relievers and DHs don&#039;t belong in the one in Cooperstown? And yet, so many actual voters agree with me, it would seem, given that there are so few relief pitchers and DHs in the Hall. Baseball is a nine-inning game of offence and defence; closers and DHs don&#039;t play the game fully. As far as excelling at their given job, sure, let&#039;s get Manny Mota in the Hall - best pinch-hitter I ever saw. And let&#039;s get those hockey &quot;enforcers&quot; in the Hockey Hall of Fame too. Hogwash.

MW:  The DH hasn&#039;t really been around long enough to prove your point.  Before Edgar, the only real DH even in the conversation was Hal McRae, and he wasn&#039;t nearly a Hall of Famer.  Paul Molitor was almost exclusively a DH for the last eight years of his career and hurt all the time for the first 12.  The Hall of Fame is supposed to be a museum of baseball history that honours the history of and the people who played the game.  The DH is a part of baseball history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Mike, it&#8217;s your view that I need to open my own hall of fame because of my opinion that relievers and DHs don&#8217;t belong in the one in Cooperstown? And yet, so many actual voters agree with me, it would seem, given that there are so few relief pitchers and DHs in the Hall. Baseball is a nine-inning game of offence and defence; closers and DHs don&#8217;t play the game fully. As far as excelling at their given job, sure, let&#8217;s get Manny Mota in the Hall &#8211; best pinch-hitter I ever saw. And let&#8217;s get those hockey &#8220;enforcers&#8221; in the Hockey Hall of Fame too. Hogwash.</p>
<p>MW:  The DH hasn&#8217;t really been around long enough to prove your point.  Before Edgar, the only real DH even in the conversation was Hal McRae, and he wasn&#8217;t nearly a Hall of Famer.  Paul Molitor was almost exclusively a DH for the last eight years of his career and hurt all the time for the first 12.  The Hall of Fame is supposed to be a museum of baseball history that honours the history of and the people who played the game.  The DH is a part of baseball history.</p>
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		<title>By: Norm</title>
		<link>http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44073</link>
		<dc:creator>Norm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 23:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2010/01/06/say-what-now/#comment-44073</guid>
		<description>Mike, re comment #49 -- I can&#039;t believe that you missed out on mentioning that Alomar&#039;s eyes (as far as can be determined) continue to be on either side of his nose!

MW:  Hee hee - sorry I missed that!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, re comment #49 &#8212; I can&#8217;t believe that you missed out on mentioning that Alomar&#8217;s eyes (as far as can be determined) continue to be on either side of his nose!</p>
<p>MW:  Hee hee &#8211; sorry I missed that!</p>
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