8:00 PM Eastern
My jaw dropped when the Hall of Fame inductee announcement came out this afternoon. I was at the offices of SUN TV, getting ready to tape tonight’s appearance on The Grill Room, when I learned that Andre Dawson was the lone writers’ inductee to Cooperstown this year, that Roberto Alomar had fallen eight votes short and that Bert Blyleven had fallen just five votes short.
It was the first time in history that two players had fallen short by fewer than ten votes each. Never mind the other three names that would have been on my ballot along with Alomar and Blyleven - Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire and Tim Raines - who finished well up the track. More on them later.
It’s insane to me that Roberto Alomar isn’t in the Hall of Fame right now - far more insane than that Dawson is.
Alomar may have been the greatest second baseman ever to play the game. He hit .300 nine times and finished a career .300/.371/.443 while being clearly the best defender at his position in the game. He was top six in the MVP voting an astonishing five times, given that he only topped the 20-homer mark twice. I’m not getting into the 12 all-star games and 10 Gold Gloves, because I think those are both minefields, but there’s no question that Alomar was the dominant player at his position during his career, and there’s no doubt he’s Hall-worthy.
Some voters (members of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America with at least 10 years in the club) seem to believe there’s a separate wing of the Hall of Fame for players who get in on the first ballot, and they wanted to make sure Alomar wasn’t so honoured, even though they’ll vote for him next year. Ridiculous. Was it because he fell short of 3,000 hits? Was it because he spit in the face of umpire John Hirschbeck - a disgusting act of petulance and immaturity? Maybe. But a lot of those same writers are of the opinion that the numbers aren’t the most important thing, that you can “know a Hall of Famer when you see one”. I can’t believe, then, that any of them saw Alomar play. I’m pretty sure you only had to watch the guy once to know that he passed the Hall of Fame Smell Test.
After all, the “Smell Test” is why Andre Dawson is in and Bert Blyleven isn’t, right? Dawson looked like a Hall of Famer to enough people that 420 writers voted for him. Congrats to The Hawk, by the way. I wouldn’t have voted for him, but he’s not a guy like, say, Don Mattingly - someone who I believe absolutely doesn’t belong. Dawson was on the bubble for me, and the reason I would have left him off my virtual ballot was a simple one: He got out too much.
I know there are many baseball fans, analysts and reporters who don’t have a lot of time for people who feel that on-base percentage is really, really important. They believe that batting average, home runs and RBIs tell you all you need to know about a hitter. They’re wrong. The most important thing a player can do with his time at the plate is not get out, and Dawson got out a lot. Injuries beat the hell out of him, so Dawson only finished in the top 10 in plate appearances once in his career. However, he finished in the top 10 in outs made four times.
Dawson’s career on-base percentage was .323 - it’s the lowest of any outfielder in the Hall of Fame by OVER 20 POINTS. And it’s seriously inflated by the amount of intentional walks he was issued. Nearly a quarter (24.3%) of the walks Dawson took in his 21-year career came when the catcher stood up and held out four fingers. Take those away and his career OBP drops to .317. That’s only six points higher than Vernon Wells’ OBP was this past season.
Dawson has a lot of things going for him - he has to to even be on the bubble with a .323 career on-base. But in my mind, there’s not enough to be a Hall of Famer. Still, he’s a better choice than Jim Rice was.
I can’t believe more writers haven’t come around on Blyleven’s candidacy, either. Yes, he fell 13 wins short of 300, playing for teams that were generally mediocre at best. Have we not become enlightened enough to realize how little of an effect a pitcher has on his wins total? Blyleven completed over 35% of his starts, and threw 60 shutouts. He allowed 10.8 baserunners per nine innings over the course of his 22-year career. He won more 1-0 games than any other pitcher in history. But he couldn’t squeeze out an extra 13 wins, so he has to wait 15 years to make it into the Hall. Some writers won’t vote for him because they feel that the way he has campaigned to make it to the Hall in recent years has been unseemly, which is a ludicrous reason to punish a guy.
Edgar Martinez is the only player in the history of Major League Baseball to post a career batting average over .300, a career on-base percentage over .400 and a career slugging percentage over .500 and not be in the Hall of Fame. I know he didn’t play defense, but they’ve named the outstanding DH award after him, for the love of Pete!
Tim Raines was a better hitter and a better basestealer than Lou Brock, and he compares very, very favourably to Tony Gwynn. But he didn’t get 3,000 hits. Brock did, but Raines reached base 144 more times than Brock - in almost 1,000 fewer plate appearances. Raines also reached base 22 more times than Gwynn, though he had 127 more plate appearances. Thing is, a lot of Raines’ work came via the walk - a weapon neither Brock nor Gwynn had. And walks don’t resonate too well with a lot of Hall of Fame voters.
The McGwire argument is a whole other kettle of fish. Yes, we’re pretty sure he was dirty. But we’re also pretty sure a lot of the other stars of his era were dirty, we just don’t have as strong a feeling about some of them, so they’ll get in and he won’t. What a load.
Rational, reasonable comments are always welcome. But if you’re Richard Griffin, you should know that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
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David Segui? How can that be justified or even comprehended? Is there a way to find out who voted for him? At least Hengten won a Cy Young award (but still doesn’t deserve a vote).
MW: Hey, Jim Deshaies got one vote, too.
- kateHas Alomar ever indicated that he would want to go into the Hall wearing the Jays cap? He’d be the first and only wouldn’t he? I know he played 5 years with the jays and won two world series but his best offensive years were his 3 with the Indians. Does he have any post-playing-career organizational ties?
Do you think Roger Clemens / Barry Bonds get in? Or, like McGwire, do they stay out too?
MW: I would hope that Bonds would be a shoo-in, but Clemens will likely stay out as long as he remains unrepentant. I’m assuming Alomar would go in as a Blue Jay and yes, he’d be the first.
- DavidCan you believe someone actually voted for David Segui? Any idea who that was?
I know the majority of the writers with ballots take this process seriously…but obviously there are several who don’t.
MW: There are a lot (a LOT) of writers who use the Hall of Fame ballot to forward their own personal agendas.
- ChrisHey Mike
Great blog as usual.
I love your comment at the end too about Richard Griffin. Would you and him ever consider having a 30 minute baseball debate on The Fan or Off The Record or something? I think that would make for a riveting baseball discussion…you guys seem to have complete opposite opinions on almost everything baseball related. At the very least, can you ask him to call in to your JaysTalk show??? Maybe he can try to convince you that the most important aspect of Alex Anthopolous being the Jays GM is that he is Canadian. (hope you can tell the sarcasm here!)
And finally, how do they determine who gets to vote for Cooperstown? Is it possible for you to ever become eligible? They sure could use your influence Mike.
Thanks and keep up the great work!
MW: I’ve had Griff on the Writers’ Round Table a few times, and we’ve been on shows together. I’m not interested in getting into a knock-down drag-out fight with other members of the media. You have to have been a BBWAA member for 10 years to get a Hall of Fame vote. At this point, it’s not possible for me to ever become eligible.
- Michael MacDiarmidHi,Mike
I was watching live on mlb.com when the president of the hall or who ever he was announced the 2009 hall of famers. I had the same reaction as you my jaw dropped about a foot when i heard that Dawson was the only inductee, the rock was a far better player than he was. Although aperantly it was Dawson who got him all clean. Now i am only in grade 10 and am a huge baseball fan, my math class ended at 1:40 so i ran to buissnes class where we do all of are work on the computer so i could watch the results, and i thought for sure Alomar would have atleast 80% of the vote. Even Ken Rosenthal who seems to start rummors about the blue jays left right and center couldnt believe that Alomar didnt get the call.
Atleast Tom Cheek has a good chance to become a member of the hall of fame this Feb.
All i can say is hopefully this dosent hapen again when Delgado, and Halladay come up for balloting years down the road. I know That Pat Hentgen wasent a hall of famer but it was to bad that he got kicked of the ballot after just one year.
Jack
MW: Hentgen didn’t deserve to be on the ballot for more than one year, he wasn’t close to being a Hall of Famer. Delgado will be an interesting case, too, given the era in which he played. You’d better clean up that spelling and grammar before you get out of high school!
- JackHi Mike,
It had to have been a misprint; I just read that Marty Noble voted for Barry Larkin, Dave Parker, and nobody else. Please tell me that I read that wrong.
MW: Nope, you’re right.
- Stevegreat post Mike. But, I have to say, I read through it hoping you’d mention Griffin. And, like a good storyteller, you left us hanging till the end. I was a bit surprised when I saw his jab at you in his article. So, in the spirit of sarcasm and symmetry, I totally agree with you, so I can’t be wrong.
- Dave MI know you don’t normally like to get into this but it is amazing how respectful you have been towards Richard Griffin when people call him out in the comments section or on The Jays Talk while he constantly does the exact opposite to you. I find the fact that you normally take the high road very admirable.
MW: Thanks. It’s getting more difficult.
- EricMaybe there is a bit of a desire to put those in the Hall who have good statistics coupled with a good vibe and something that made them unique in the game.
For Dawson the unique feature has to be the blank contract that he let Cubs fill in the dollar value on for the 1987 season - and the Cubs filled in an incredibly lowball number for someone of Dawson’s calibre.
But instead of being bitter about the whole idea, or packing up and going home, he proceeded to win the 1987 MVP award for the last place team.
Alomar though will always have the Hirschbeck “event” somewhere nearby when he is remembered. A caller on The Fan this afternoon also recalled him sitting out three games at the end of the season to preserve a .300 average. I am not sure if this is true, perhaps you could confirm it.
He will get in at some point and probably that’s the most important thing. Any recognition given through the votes of writers will introduce some bias, probably due to both perception and personal experience with a certain player. I’m not sure that you can eliminate that.
MW: As long as the voting is being done by human beings, you can’t eliminate that. I remember Alomar staging a one-game sitdown when David Cone was traded in 1995 - he wasn’t a mature guy, which certainly puts him in good company among pro athletes. He did sit out the last four games of ‘95, but he also didn’t play a whole lot before the last week - I seem to remember him being hurt. He finished that season 4-for-27.
- Rob MThe real head scratcher is that Raines received only 30% of the vote with his superior stats (he had a career OBP of .385, just two points below surefire hall of famer Derek Jeter’s OBP).
What’s your view on Lee Smith? He certainly bounced around a lot from team to team, but ignoring the dubious save statistic, he had an impressive career ERA+ of 131 and 8.7k/9 innings.
MW: ERA for a reliever doesn’t mean anything to me. I don’t love the fact that Smith allowed 11.1 baserunners per nine innings over his peak years. Only once in his career did he have a WHIP under 1.1. A great closer should have a WHIP around 1.00.
- Bill PI’m not too sure what I think about the steroid thing myself, so I won’t judge anyone on that, but are there really that many stupid writers that Blyleven still isn’t in the Hall? I was sure Alomar would get in. Am I only reading stuff from somewhat knowledgeable writers or are the ones refusing to let Alomar in hiding in some kind of gutter until the voting thing is done? I’m sure no one can logically justify forgetting to include his name there.
MW: Go read Marty Noble.
- Cooper PowellDon’t worry Mike. I’m sure Griff is just bitter his picks of David Segui and Pat Hentgen didn’t get in.
MW: I doubt that Griffin was the one who voted for Hentgen.
- MatthewMike, did you take offense to what the Griff-man wrote in his mailbag, or were you being facetious with the last line of your post?
MW: I didn’t read his mailbag.
- sharonThat last tidbit was needed, Where do you think Edgar Martinez ranks amongst the all time great hitters counting the fact that he wasn’t an everyday player until age 27. For me I think he was top 10-12 player, one of the top 5 hitters of the past 25 years.
MW: As I said in the post, Edgar is the only non Hall of Famer with a career line better than .300/.400/.500. He was an awesome hitter.
- AhmedDear Mr. Wilner,
Don’t you hate it when you write a long, thoughtful, and brilliant blog comment then, after not entering the anti-spam word, have all of that work vanish into the ether?
MW: Always save your work.
- Moyashi from JapanKeeping Alomar out of the Hall for a year based on some subjective beliefs about what a first ballot HOF player should be is completely unfair and total crap. He was the best position player I ever saw play in these parts, hands down.
The Dawson stats you referenced disturbed me. In particular the stat about being in the league top 10 for making outs 4 times tells alot. Dawson sure got plenty of opportunities to hit homeruns and drive in runs - kinda Joe Carteresque.
MW: Dawson was a far, far, far better player than Carter.
- McLovinHey Mike,
Edgar Martinez doesn’t pass the Hall of Fame Smell Test.
This season, Jason Kendall will surpass Yogi Berra, Johnny Bench and Gary Carter on the all-time hit list.
When Kendall retires, he’ll be top five among catchers in several offensive categories.
But when fans watched Edgar Martinez and Jason Kendall, they were not watching Hall of Fame players. They were watching “very good” players who played for a long period of time, but not greatness.
MW: Edgar didn’t really play that long. He was a full-timer for 15 years, and three of those seasons were nearly wiped out because of injury. Considering my case for Edgar is built on his rate stats, not his counting stats, you’re not really disputing what I’ve said. If he doesn’t pass the smell test for you, then that’s fine, but the smell test is a bad way to evaluate a guy.
- Ken PaganI agree with everything you said but I feel you erred in not commenting on the incredible stupidity of jack Morris getting 282 votes.
Would that the ballots were public so I’d know which 282 writers i could cease to take seriously on any other opinion.
(I can’t help but wonder what was on Grif and Elliot’s ballots…)
- WillRainWILL DAWSON FO IN HOF AS AN EXPO?
MW: Assuming you mean “go” (and stop yelling!) I would think and hope that he would, though one could argue he achieved greater fame as a Cub.
- CJHere’s a guy, Edgar Martinez, who, in his prime, didn’t field a position and was taken out for pinch runners. Martinez, for the overwhelming portion of his career spent his time on the bench – literally, I mean. (Not in the sense that he wasn’t a starter.) He was rarely on the field of play. Think about how long in a given game a DH is actually competing. Not much. People talk passing the smell test, and I don’t see how a DH smells like anything other than part-time player. An important part-time player, but still. He didn’t really PLAY THE GAME much, not in the sense that Roberto Clemente did, anyway. Edgar Martinez pinch hit four times a game – big deal.
Also, I have no problem with the first-ballot thing – in general. With more and more good-but-not-great players getting in the Hall, I like the idea of a separate elite status for the great players. That being said, Robbie Alomar probably should have gotten in. The dude dominated.
MW: If you don’t think a DH can get into the Hall of Fame, then how can a closer?
- Evan WhiteWell Mike,
Yet again the BBWAA has failed us. This is a system that clearly does not work, and continues to be a source of great controversy.
Which is exactly why nobody will take steps to correct it. Hear me out: Over the past several HOF voting seasons, there have been large controversies. The radio and television coverage seems to me to increase every year, and the more ridiculous the decisions made, the more outrage that is generated.
This keeps Baseball relevant in the depths of its offseason, especially at a time when the hotstove is cooling. We all sit around and debate, but it also creates more awareness for the hall (and provides the egotistical maniac writers an opportunity to ‘write’ a column explaining why their vote is right, and even if it isn’t, they’ve earned the right to make the decision.)
For one, I have no plans on making the trip to cooperstown any time in the near future. But I am grateful for the uproar because it gets Baseball covered during the offseason in places like Toronto.
Maybe someday they can create a fan vote for the HOF? similar to the FCF award? On that note, when will they be inducting Tom? (the hall is dead to me if they fail in this…)
MW: I think having a fan vote for the Hall of Fame would be horrifying.
- Scotty DIt’s a joke! These writers/voters are for the most part guys with short memories when it comes to a players most important stat - that being getting to first base! You can’t score and you can’t help your team if you don’t get on base.
There is nothing wrong with their memories however when it comes to remembering a player who may have ditched them for an interview or had a momenteray lapse of humanity (Alomar)during a heated moment in a game. For most of these so called baseball people who do the voting, the HOF voting is based very often on popularity with respect to some players who are in there and some who are not.
Nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to these events and the results as posted by the court jesters. There has to be some kind of synopsis whereas the voting is based on a set of statistics like the ones you mentioned Mike.
They have to learn or be shown how to seperate personality from ability and having the criteria better laid out as to how a player gets in might work better for all concerned when it comes to fair and accurate voting.
It seems to me it is a no brainer, a pretty simple procedure as to voting and who or who doesn’t get in on a first ballot or who does or doesn’t get in at all.
A committee of retired players or managers would certainly be more apt at rendering a more accurate result than a bunch of scribes who at one time or another may have been spurned by a player for an interview etc. Or those who look at a players personality rather than their ability to perform as an athlete that stands at a higher level than those of their peers!
It is so very frustrating as a fan to see something as simple as identifying the best, when you have all the information you need at your fingertips. Yet, year after year and player after player, these voters get it so accurately wrong!
Thanks Mike, keep on doing what you do best.
MW: They don’t always get it wrong. I would fear that a committee of retired players or managers might do an ever worse job than the writers - look at Gold Glove voting! - and I’m sure in that case there would be more votes for who was a “good guy” and such things. It would be great if the system would be fixed, no question.
- Bob (from Burllington)Did you catch the interview with Jack McCaffery on OTR? I think something needs to be done about HOF voting, though I really don’t know what. The guy’s reasoning to NEVER (and he did say never) vote for Robbie to get in the Hall is the one isolated incident where he apologized and was forgiven. Hirschbeck said himself that he would have voted for Alomar. You have a guy that dismisses a player’s entire career based on a split second decision in the heat of the moment, as ill advised as it may be yet you vote for Mark McGwire while acknowledging he used roids? I mean, I have no issue with McGwire, Bonds, Clemens or A-Rod getting in, but I figure if you draw the line at what Alomar did, it’s absolutely ludicrous to not draw it at steroids because you feel “it was the player’s choice to risk their own body”
Sorry for the rant, just people like this clown boggle my mind.
MW: I didn’t see it.
- AlanHey Mike, I think that Robbie not getting in is total bs, I mean Paul Moliter got in on his first year (i think Rickey did too) but Paul while great, isn’t spectacular enough to get in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, so using that as an example, Robbie should’ve got in. The spitting thing is what ruined it for him, and the thing is he atoned for that mistake! How stupid are these voters?
- AdamAmen Brother Wilner, Amen. The result of the HOF voting this year is brutal and your comments are bang on. Thanks for be rational and reasonable…with just the right amount of anger.
Here’s to Robbie (in a Blue Jays uniform), Bert and Tim in 2011…and Chapman signed with the Blue Jays at some point this week.
MW: There’s no way Raines gets in next year - it may take him 10 years on the ballot for enough writers to see the light.
- ChrisHi Mike,
I’m curious whether you think Barry Bonds will be similarly “punished” in his first year of eligibility. Unlike a McGwire, I can’t imagine the BBWAA will keep him out of the HOF for his possible steroid use or could they? His career numbers are just silly.
MW: I do think Bonds will be punished in his first year, but I also think that enough voters believe that he was a Hall of Famer before he ever got puffy, so he likely gets in anyway.
- Rob TheriaultI always admired the way Robbie retired after a spring training game — where he made (I think) a couple of errors. Loved the way he decided to hang them up since he couldn’t play up to his own standards.
That’s the way to go out. Sure, it means he didn’t 3,000 hits. But it was way classier.
BTW, thanks for making the winter more tolerable with your blog and radio appearances Mike.
MW: Thanks. I was actually there for Alomar’s last-ever game, and he was awful.
- andrewThese joke votes (Sequi, Hentgen) are a perfect example of why these ballots need to be made public.
Whoever voted for Segui should have his vote publicized, then the PUBLIC (who has to read his tripe) can vote whether he should keep his ballot, job, and/or ability to watch another baseball game.
I’m not going to get started on Dawson, though I can say that consistency is a rather overlooked trait (consistentcy whether its good or bad…). He did pile up decent numbers over a lot of seasons. He wouldn’t get my vote, but unfortunately like all voting processes in the MLB (and possibly society) it has become a joke to the statistically educated and is just a popularity contest with hypocrisy eveywhere.
- Wyatt Bailey“I know there are many baseball fans, analysts and reporters who don’t have a lot of time for people who feel that on-base percentage is really, really important”
Well, at least you’re right on there.
However, there’s no point in rehashing the obvious fallacy of your view on this - if people who have spent their lives in professional baseball people can’t puncture your certainty on this issue it would be foolish of me to presume that my strong opinion to the contrary has any validity at all; what I CAN tell you is that - living in Montreal for allmost all of Dawson’s career there - absolutely no one complained that he didn’t walk enough - what they took him to task for were his strikeouts and failures to drive in runs at critical points; but at that time Dawson had it all wrong - he seemed to be up at the plate with the intention of driving the ball - maybe even driving in a run occasionally, or hitting a double to put himself in scoring position, or moving a runner to third with less than two outs. Despite his wayward aggressiveness at the plate he somehow found his way into the HOF. But what do those career baseball writers REALLY know about the intricacies of the game anyway?
How different the story might have been if the hitting coach had taken him aside in 1976 and said authoritatively, “The most important thing a player can do with his time at the plate is not get out…”
Uh-huh. That’s why the sluggers and run producers get the biggest money, eh - somehow I kinda doubt if they approach their at-bats as you would advise… it’s the Gregg Zauns of the world who actually do look like they’re up at the plate hoping to walk - I’ll still take Dawson, even with his strikeouts…
MW: It’s like banging my head against a wall.
- KenOh man, where do I even start? These guys who vote on the HOF are idiots. What happened? Did they suddenly find 85 home runs and 210 RBI’s they didn’t know Dawson previously had? A players numbers do not change after retirement. He’s either HOF worthy or he is not. Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News ( a beat writer for the Reds) said he did not vote for Alomar because of the spitting incident and he never would. This is the same guy who lobbys for Pete Rose to be inducted into the HOF
There also seems to be some sort of mindset that says if you were a star player with the Yankees you deserve support and if you failed in New York you do not deserve support. I can not comprehend what writers who supported Thurman Munson for years and are now backing Don Mattingly are thinking. If Mattingly and Munson had played for the Texas Rangers they’d have never made the ballot a second time. Alomar failed miserably with the Mets, so maybe that is their lasting impression of him.
I agree that Andre Dawson is a borderline HOF case at best, but I gotta tell you, he had the greatest throwing arm I ever saw. He was always dangerous to throw runners out on their way to first on hard ground singles to right field. Back in the late 70’s I was watching a game on my local television between the Reds and Expos. With one out in the eighth inning and David Concepcion on third, a batter for the Reds hit a deep fly ball to right center that Dawson tracked down on the warning track in front of the 375 foot sign. Concepcion tagged at third thinking he could score easily. Dawson uncorked a throw that landed between first base and the mound and took a perfect bounce into Gary Carters glove. Concepcion was out by ten feet. I’ll never forget the look on Concepcions face. That was a major league throw.
Players have little say as to what emblem goes on their hat on their HOF placque. Carlton Fisk wanted the White Sox, but the HOF insisted the Red Sox. Catfish Hunter requested no emblem at all and his wish was granted. I’d hope Alomar will be a Blue Jay.
Excuse me, I’m going to drive 75 miles to Dayton and spit on Hal McCoy.
MW: Don’t do that, Mr. McCoy is a very nice man. If throwing arms got players into the Hall of Fame, Jesse Barfield, Mark Whiten and Jose Bautista would each have his own wing.
- Jim in OhioHey Mike,
Being an enormous Alomar fan since I was knee-high to a grasshopper I was pretty upset with the result of the vote at first. But I quickly recovered when I realized that the HOF vote is just something else that the omphaloskeptical members of the baseball voters continually get wrong. Is there a mandatory lobotomy for these guys?
Between Gold Gloves, Cy Youngs, Cooperstown and it’s hard to take anything seriously and it’s a shame because some of the recipients are truly deserving of the accolades.
I guess there’s no “right” way to do things. Fan voting for the all-star game is exhibit A for anybody who thinks fans should have any say whatsoever in the HoF vote. Terrifying.
- KPGood analysis Mike. You are 100% correct on Dawson, Blyleven, Raines, & Gwynn. Gwynn and Raines are almost identical ball players and look how differently they have been treated by the voters. Scary, the amount of incompetence that these writers have.
I don’t agree with you that “Robbie Alomar may have been the greatest second baseman to play the game”, however I do agree that he should have a sure-fire first ballot inductee. Nap Lajoie and Joe Morgan were both far better players than Alomar. WARP is a simple measure of how valuable a player is than includes hitting, defense, and base running and allows us to compare players from different eras and at different positions. Here are the best six seasons for these three players along with their career totals.
Nap Lajoie:
12.7, 12.4, 10.9, 10.9, 10.2, & 9.7
Career Total = 131.2
Joe Morgan
13.2, 12.3, 11.5, 11.5, 10.6, & 8.0
Career Total = 124.2
Robbie Alomar
7.8, 7.6, 7.0, 6.6, 6.6, & 6.2
Career Total = 73.9
For comparative purposes here is Andre Dawson, this year’s inductee:
7.6, 7.4, 7.1, 5.8, 4.4, & 3.8
Career Total = 59.5
Thanks for providing thisforum allowing me the opportunity to provide this information. Much appreciated.
- Stat LadyMike,
First off, I do agree with Griffin in his remark that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Not only that, but you go about it in such an arrogant, smug fashion.
Secondly, Andre Dawson was a great player because he was a dominant power hitter of his era. He wasn’t paid to take walks and work the count. And the fact that a quarter of his walks were intentional shows how feared he was by pitchers who wanted no part of him. But good on you to subtract the intentional walks and give a new figure, as if those didn’t matter.
Fact is he was the NL MVP, finished second twice in MVP voting, and displayed gold glove defence (but of course those are ‘minefields’ and you probably don’t count them because there are new stats that somehow decipher who can defend). Take away 430 of his home runs and 1,500 of his RBI and he was no better than John McDonald.
Over 21 years he averaged 27 homers, 98 RBI, 19 stolen bases and was an above average defender, yet he didn’t take enough walks or hit worm burners up the middle for your liking.
Meanwhile, Edgar Martinez was an elite hitter but a player who couldn’t catch a cold while wearing a glove, yet you drool all over him for getting on base 40% of the time.
If only Marco Scutaro had 15 seasons like the one he had last year, he’d be a shoo-in on your ballot. Thankfully that will never happen.
MW: It’s funny that you say I’m arrogant and smug. No one is actually paid to take walks, but the great hitters, the really smart hitters, do it anyway because they know that just going up there hacking and walking back to the dugout almost 70% of the time is really counter-productive. It’s not as though Dawson was just one of a bunch of the greatest players of all-time who didn’t value the walk - his career OBP, again, is over 20 points lower than any other HOF outfielder. That’s kind of a big deal. Also, I drool all over Edgar for getting on-base almost 42% of the time - he’s 22nd all-time on that list. But he also hit 33 points better than Dawson and his career slugging percentage was 33 points better, too. And Edgar had more RBIs per plate appearance than Dawson - but he was only interested in drawing walks.
- CoryWilner,
Do you know how many Toronto based writers get a vote for the HOF? Is there a site that lists all the votes by all the writers? For those that did not vote for Alomar, is there any way to get them on the air to explain their rational?
MW: There’s no such site, and there are a lot of Toronto writers with a vote. I can’t imagine that any of them didn’t vote for Alomar.
- BobbyI think Robbie Alomar can now quantify exactly what his petulant spitting incident cost. Unfortunalatey enough of the BBWAA writers let that incident cloud their decision. I agree with those who say Alomar still gets in next year and to me that’s the important point.
I’ll consider a visit to Cooperstown with my family, only after Tom is there first.
Finally one more 80s challenge for you. Hopefully a little tougher than the last. I’ll dedicate this to the writers who chose not to vote for Robbie.
“I’m not proud of the fact that I never learned much,
Just feel I should say,
what you get is all real,
I can’t put on an act,
It takes brains to do that anyway.”
MW: You got me with that one, but I wasn’t into XTC.
- TouchemallJoeHey Mike
Although we only have a small sample size to this point, you have to be impressed with the moves AA has made. Do you think management made a good decision to bring in AA or do you think the Jays would have been better off with JP running the club?
MW: I think the two of them have different agendas, to be sure. J.P. didn’t have the luxury, the last few years, of making moves looking three of four years into the future. But I don’t know that he’d have done what Alex has if he had.
- rickHey Mike,
It’s been sort of buried this year because he’s already been through it a few times, but I can only speculate the reason for McGwire being stuck at 24 per cent is the suspicion of roids and use of Andro etc.
A couple years ago, it was brought up that many HOFers from the 60s and 70s routinely and openly used performance-enhancers that are now on the banned list (amphetamines i.e. greenies)
Why is there not more common knowledge and/or discussion of widespread greenie use in that era? Are baseball writers, in your opinion, willing to accept use of greenies moreso than steroids?
MW: Absolutely.
- Ken PaganMike.. I think they are walking on a slippery slope if Blylevin does not get in.. This means they are using the 300 win bar.. It is possible that we might not see another 300 win pitcher EVER.. I say let him in,which he fully deserves, and get off this 300 win thing.. On the same subject, I have heard some broadcasters say that Pedro would be a first timer in the hall at 219 wins ..GO FIGURE.. What is your take Mike? Thanks..
MW: Pedro is absolutely a first-ballot guy for me.
- FLIPPERMW: If McGowan is healthy, he’s the number one starter. Given what he’s gone through, though, I certainly don’t expect him to be ready to start the season, despite how well he says he feels. He still hasn’t thrown off a mound yet. And it’s “ante up”.
Damn grammatical errors. I knew it was wrong but for some reason I hit send anyway. I’ll be more cognizant of my word usage and spelling in future posts.
Also, what’s your take on Adam Lind not wanting to hit clean-up? I appreciate his honesty and the fact that there is a lot of pressure in hitting in the four spot but it makes me wonder about his mental toughness. Do you not mess with 30+ home runs and 100+ RBI and leave him in the three or five hole? Not that this issue will make me return the Lind jersey I bought last year however.
MW: I would leave him hitting third, simply because he’s the best-suited guy on the team to hit there. But I’d also make him understand that there are no lucky or unlucky spots in the batting order. He might have to hit there, and he’d be expected to be the same guy.
- CameronYea its a shame Dawson is in ahead of Alomar..Yes is OBP was horrible but he did have 438Hr and 1591 RBI’s..
I think we need to think about the era of baseball he played in..OBP wasn’t looked at as a critical stat in the 80’s as it is today..I think OBP is important but only if it suits the players style or abilities..That’s why I don’t put a whole lot of stock in Overbays OBP..He isn’t a base stealer or much of a base runner for that matter..
Dawson has stayed out of trouble outside of baseball..No spitting incidents or having women show up at his hotel with a gun..This may be the difference and I believe they will elect Alomar eventually..
MW: OBP wasn’t looked at as a critical stat in the ’80s, it’s true, but look at the OBP leaders in the majors in the ’80s: George Brett, Rickey Henderson, Mike Schmidt, Joe Morgan, Wade Boggs, Rod Carew, Eddie Murray, Tim Raines, Paul Molitor. It’s a shame that great hitters didn’t see the importance of getting on base back then.
- ray bYou are so BANG ON !!I love your HOF take on everything…
- Moe DumontWhat is your take on the canditacy of the players who will be one hall of fame ballot next year that will be first timers?
Jeff Bagwell
Larry Walker
Kevin Brown
Rafeal Palmerio
John Olerud
Juan Gonzalez
John Franco
MW: Bagwell is awfully, awfully close. He was a steroid-era power hitter whose HR numbers were reflective of the era, but whose HR numbers were also reduced because of the brutal ballpark he played in for half his career. Walker’s numbers will be discounted greatly by the fact that he played so long in Colorado. I think Bagwell will make it because he’s kept his nose clean, even though there’s lots to suggest that he did things (like most everybody else who played when he did), Walker probably won’t because of Mile High/Coors. Palmeiro will never get in, and none of those other guys will, either.
- timHi Mike,
I enjoy your blog. However, I am quite a bit hesitant on Edgar Martinez, mostly because I think that a DH should have either longevity stats or ridiculously high rate or seasonal stats, ones that are evident through MVP balloting.
One of the reasons that I love the baseball hall of fame is that it is the most exclusive of the major sports. For example, I am a big fan of tennis and now it seems that if you have a great fortnight and win a major then you automatically enter the tennis hall of fame - which is rather sad.
MW: Martinez does have ridiculously high rate stats.
- SteveDECISION TO COME IN THREE DAYS!!! Sun Sentinal is reporting that Aroldis Chapman is three days away from deciding between the Angels and Blue Jays for a deal that will be in the 21 million dollar range. Aroldis is apparently becoming friendly with Kendry Morales. The Marlins are still in the hunt with a far less lucrative monetary value in the 13 million dollar range. They are counting on Chapman being culturally comfortable in South Florida.
MW: And yet, Cincinnati ain’t that close to Miami.
- DomenickMike
You wouldn’t believe in a million years after reading my last comment that my English mark isn’t bad. I hope that this comment is a little easier to read.
You said that when Delgado becomes eligible for the hall of fame it would be an interesting case to watch, and I completely agree. He is a tremendous offensive player, but a very poor fielder. I very much enjoy watching him play. It was especially interesting to watch him during the last two months of the 2004 season. In which he was on fire attempting to reach the Plato of 30 plus homeruns, and 100 plus RBI for what I believe would have been the 7th consecutive season. Also, if I remember correctly in the final game of the year he was stranded on deck in the bottom of the ninth inning with multiple runners on, while sitting on 99 RBI.
I have had the pleasure of watching Delgado for as long as I can remember. I even lived in Florida the year he was with the Marlins, but I never saw McGriff play. Which leads me to my question, who do you think is the better of the two Fred McGriff or Carlos Delgado?
MW: Delgado, without question. The Plato of 30 plus homeruns? Is that like the Tao of Stieb?
- JackWhat other baseball blogs do you read? Or are any other baseball things that you read?
MW: I read all kinds of stuff. I read the Drunks, the Tao, Jordan Bastian’s blog, mlbtraderumors - and now I have to read Seager more, because he’s two spots more important than I am.
- MattHi Mike, I think it’s to bad and obvious why Alomar is not an official all-star. That emotional spitting incident was the Achilles heel to that man’s spectacular career.
Great summary Mike.
I also wanted to ask if the Jays are going to get Aroldis Chapman.
MW: It doesn’t look that way. And Alomar was an official all-star 12 times - he’s just not a Hall of Famer yet.
- A. RamirezHow many selections on one ballot can a BBWAA writer have? Bob Elliot ran off his selections on Prime Time and it sounded like there were 8…
MW: A writer can fill in as many as 10 names on his or her ballot each year.
- Ryan McCallenWhy was Barajas “the Captain” ?
Did Robbie Alomar develop a problem with his eye site? I think I heard that.
MW: You heard that Alomar has AIDS, which isn’t true. For the Barajas “Captain” story, go back to the archives from January 2008, when the Jays signed him.
- BarbMW: If you don’t think a DH can get into the Hall of Fame, then how can a closer?
I don’t think closers should get in. More often than not, closers are failed starters. They are highly paid important role players.
MW: You need to open your own Hall of Fame.
- Evan WhiteMike.
I was listening to Bobcat on the way home the other day - he had Bob Elliot on. There was the question of Martinez… and what I could glean is BE wouldn’t vote for a DH. I won’t repeat all his converstaion, but the gist was he didn’t play a position and was only a DH.
I wonder how many writers are the same?
All you can ask is for the guy to do his job. What is the HOF for? To me, to honour the players who were the best at what they did. And EM was the best, period.
Molitor is a HOF’er. Yes, he started as an infielder. What you remember about him is his bat, not his fielding. EM played 1st base once in a while too, if I recall….
To further that point - the hall is full of players who were _average_ defensively but with the bat excelled. There are few (any?) stellar defensive players with average stats - that immediately disqualifies them. Could you argue that Devon White or Johnny Mac are HOF’ers? You could argue they were/are the best at their position defensively for stretches (if JM played a regular game) but you will never get them on an HOF ballet.
You may as well rename the HOF to “baseballs best hitters who aren’t DH’s and best pitchers who aren’t relievers” because really, that’s all there is (with _very_ few exceptions).
MW: It’s true.
- PatrickGreat blog Mike.
From my perspective, it’s pretty clear that Alomar, Blyleven and Raines are all clearly hall-of-famers based on their on-field play, and that each for their own reason is held out based on some supposed transgression or personality failing.
It’s a shame really.
In the case of Dawson, I don’t believe his defense makes up for him being an out-machine, but it was pretty spectacular, especially his arm.
Regarding Martinez, at least I can grasp writers not voting him in because there’s a prejudice against the DH, so while I disagree with them, I can understand where they are coming from.
With regard to Raines, Blyleven and Alomar, it is shameful that they are not in, period.
- DavidHey Mike,
I can’t believe what I was reading on that Griffen blog/article.
Anyways,
What do you think about Eric Bedard? I realize the Jays have an obsurd amount of starting pitchers, but I think Bedard is worth giving a rotation spot to if he is healthy…
MW: If they could get him long-term for cheap, which isn’t going to happen, I’d say go for it. But for one year, what’s the point?
- Stevie H.Re: Edgar Martinez - its not DH vs Closer. Its DH vs bullpen setup guy. How many pure setup men are in HOF? None, because good ones are made closers or were starters first. Its generally been a stop-gap place; and for some very good pitchers has come at the beginning or end (ie - Jimmy Key). My point is “great” players have great impact. For pitchers, that naturally is not as a setup man, for position players it is naturally not as a DH. If EM was a truly great player - he would have been a good enough defender to be on the field full time. You are contradicting your Alomar argument (great D as an addition to his package) by discounting EM’s lack of defense. Just cause you never get to try something shouldn’t justify the fact you didn’t do it.
MW: Edgar did play almost 600 games in the field, and was a quality defender early in his career. It’s the damn turf in Vancouver that ravaged his hamstrings. I’m not sure how you got to the set-up man thing vs. the closer thing, but I am sure that you didn’t explain it.
- NeilWhat’s up Mike?
Long time no chat.
A couple things I want to throw out there. I am really excited about the possibility of landing this Chapman kid. I watched him pitch on TV during the baseball classic and he looked REALLY good. He’s tall and lanky and he uses it well. His fastball is electric, it comes out effortlessly and has late life. Very smooth motion with his body. His breaking ball is sharp too when he keeps it down but he was a little inconsistent with it (whatever…..he’s 22). With his body I could see him putting up serious numbers. Here’s a clip of him pitching against Australia. It’s a long clip so you can see him throw a bunch. Watch the fastball he throws at the 5 min 33 sec point in the clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRn8O6gpCHc&feature=related
I really like the thought of Drabek, him, and Morrow leading our rotation into the future. Add Marcum, a hopefully healthy Mcgowan, Romero, Litsch…..I like where this is going. I’m glad you mentioned the thing about the Jays having the advantage of him being able to move his family to Canada. That is something that I have been saying for a long time. The Jays should have been taking advantage of that for years. I wondered why they never tried to snatch up more Cuban talent with that advantage. I personally think they should be trying to snag the infielder Yulieski Gourriel as well.
Now about the three guys we got for Halladay. What are your thoughts on them? I like the Drabek kid. Plus with him, I tend to like guys who had fathers or uncles that were big leaguers. In his case his dad was a good pitcher for a while. I feel guys like that have an advantage. They’ve been around the big leagues, they saw first hand how guys carried themselves and quite frankly they’ve been taught how to play big league baseball by big leaguers.
The Wallace kid is supposed to be a good hitter. I hope so because I watched a you tube clip of him taking ground balls at third base…..wasn’t pretty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AomsDHb7WPo&feature=related
If he hits like he’s supposed to he could be a really good fit at 1st base. I have questions about his physique though.
I haven’t seen the catcher at all but I’ve heard good things.
I also must mention that I like what I see from our new GM (Alex Alphabet). I admit I was skeptical about him. But I like that he’s re-invested our scouting efforts in Latin America. It drove me nuts that Ricciardi put more stock in scouting college players than he put in the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and/or Venezuela. With that in mind I was pleasantly surprised when the new guy (as you can see, I can’t spell his name LOL) refocused on the area considering he worked under Ricciardi for so long. I was worried that Alex was just going more of the same garbage. He doesn’t seem to be and for the first time in a long time I have hope for the future. Here’s hoping we land Chapman. Then I’ll REALLY be impressed!
Oh btw….I totally agree with you about Alomar. I hope he gets in next time around. Best two-bagger of all time in my mind and one of the best all around players I can remember.
Blyleven should have got in as well (I didn’t have the pleasure of seeing him pitch much but I’ve heard he was legit and his numbers are too)
Really happy to see the hawk get in. Love that guy!!!
Comments?
MW: Comments? Seems like you took care of that pretty well! The Jays aren’t getting Chapman, unfortunately - and you should take a minute or two to learn how to spell Alex’s name.
- RealityCheckMike…Our moms all told us at one time: “If you can’t say anything nice about someone, don’t say anything at all”… But in a sports world that includes the likes of Milton Bradley, A.J. Pierzynski, Sean Avery, Gilbert Arenas, Chad Johnson (or whatever he calls himself) et al, how hard is it in your profession to keep mom’s rules and bite your tongue?
MW: My job is to talk about what I see happening, not to sugarcoat.
- chris m.Mike,
Bonds will make it on the first ballot, guaranteed!
MW: I certainly hope so, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
- NickMike, you have to see Jack McCaffery on Off The Record. It is SHOCKING!!! He mentions that not only Alomar, but also Manny Ramirez will never get his vote. But he has voted for McGwire in the past for each of the past three years. Some village idiot did not vote for Rickey Henderson. This might be the guy.
- DomenickHey Mike
The column was killer today buddy, I love the way you view the game (especially the OBP aspect). I agree with your point about the HAWK getting out too much, but shouldn’t that theory also be applied to BIG MAC? That guy struck out quite a bit and ws never too scary with the game on the line.
Alomar not getting in on the first ballot is laughable and an insult to my memory of him making plays that NOBODY in baseball was making He was also clutch for us when it counted and I often think of him when Wells gets up inthe same situations and chokes.
Let’s not forget about THE ROCK and the beautiful game he played. He got on base, stole another and scored a bunch of runs. He has that Hall Of Famer feel and we all know it.
Enough said, keep up the awesome work :)
Bri
MW: You do realize that Mark McGwire had a .394 career OBP, right? He also had a career OPS over 1.000 in tie games, with runners in scoring position and with runners in scoring position and two out.
- BriO.M.D. VS. Echo and the Bunny Men?
MW: Do I have to choose? I wasn’t a fan of either
That’s troubling, very troubling. I’m just not sure what i think of any of your opinions anymore.
In all seriousness O.M.D.’s first few records are really good. It’s not all pretty and pink soundtracks.
MW: If you leave, don’t look back. But that was on The Breakfast Club soundtrack, wasn’t it?
- jeremyHey Mike. I’m sure I can’t be the first person to ask you this, but what chance do you think Mr Cheek has at getting into the hall when the voters make such disfunctional choises? Is it the same group of voters for both the players and the broadcasters? Sounds to me like this could become a total crap shoot!
MW: It’s a different group of voters, but they’ve already swung and missed on Tom a bunch of times.
- Matt in BCZach Jackson is back. What do you think Mike? Is it just another move adding depth to the organization? Is there any reason to get excited about this guy? He turns 27 in May and is getting to the age in which a former 1st rounder shows if he’s got it or not. If he doesn’t ever become a back of the rotation starter at least he may be a valuable bullpen guy since he has shown good control at the major league level. He has only walked 34 batters in 105 1/3 innings pitched.
MW: Just another depth arm. Maybe a guy who replaces Tallet at some point.
- DomenickI understand that this is a total rebuild. But I still think that they owe it to the fans to try to compete. By compete, I don’t mean by signing high priced free agents that will not be here in three years. I do believe that they should still fill in some of the holes that exist on this team. I still think they need another catcher to go with John Buck. I don’t like the Chavez/Buck platoon but there aren’t any free agent catchers out there so they may be stuck with a weak platoon. I hope that one of D’Arnoud, Arencibia or Jerolomen develop. Although I do respect Overbay’s ability to get on base, he is painful to watch against left handed pitchers and I hope that the Jays will have someone that can hit lefties and play first base. I actually think they have the answer in Randy Ruiz. I would like to see an Overbay/Ruiz platoon but Robb Quinlan and Nomar Garciaparra are out there and they can do better then Overbays .256 OBA against lefties in 2009. I’m assuming they will not rush Brett Wallace. Is Jose Bautista going to play 135 games in left field this year? Or will Lind play the outfield and Carlos Delgado come in and DH. I was kidding about Delgado but I would love for that to happen. It would be a nice bone to throw to fans after losing Halladay. Wouldn’t it be great if they signed him to a 2 year deal and he put up .275/.360 25HR .875OPS numbers in each season and then retire as a Blue Jay.
MW: I don’t think there’s any use in signing “this-year” guys in an attempt to win 78 games instead of 72, but I don’t relish the idea of Jose Bautista playing 150 games in right field. I don’t have a problem with a bone being thrown to Delgado if it would get Adam Lind into the outfield to see if he can improve and if it wouldn’t block Wallace.
- DomenickThe Blue Jays 2010 starting lineup as it stands now will be very weak.
LF Jose Bautista 486AB 19HR .240AVG .350OBP .730OPS
SS Alex Gonzalez 388AB 9HR .250AVG .300OBP .700OPS
2B Aaron Hill 650AB 25HR .290AVG .340OBP .780OPS
DH Adam Lind 625AB 40HR .305AVG .390OBP .970OPS
CF Vernon Wells 630AB 18HR .240AVG .295OBP .680OPS
RF Travis Snider 517AB 23HR .263AVG .351OBP .810OPS
1B Lyle Overbay 500AB 15HR .270AVG .370OBP .800OPS
3B Edwin Encarnacion 500AB 25HR .260AVG .341OBP .790
C John Buck 400AB 9HR .233AVG .290OBP .700OPS
Yikes!!!!
MW: Where did those projections come from? And if it’s like that, Bautista will be in right and Snider in left.
- DomenickThe projections I have for the 2010 Jays will obviously look out of whack as things never go as they seem but the one thing that is certain is that there is no depth to overcome any kind of injuries. 2010 will be ugly.
MW: Those are your own personal projections? Oh, no wonder.
- DomenickBonds was a hall of famer before he got puffy, you’re correct. McGwire was not. He was a better than average home run hitter. I hope he never gets a sniff of the hall. Fred McGriff’s body type didn’t change throughout his carrer and he will never get in. I’m sure he could have added a hundred or so homers to his totals by hanging with McGwire. It is very subjective I know, and there is no right way to handle the steriod era but I feel no pity for these guys.
MW: McGwire hit 49 home runs when he was a 190-pound rookie, playing in a ballpark that was awful for hitters.
- KevinMW: “McGwire hit 49 home runs when he was a 190-pound rookie, playing in a ballpark that was awful for hitters.”
Where did the 190 pounds come from? The 1987 “Street and Smith’s” has him listed as 220 lbs. - he was always big.
Re Bonds: I agree his pre-steroids numbers justify his HOF inclusion; but I somehow doubt the writers are going to give him that leeway. From all accounts he was one of the biggest jerks of all time when he played, and enough of the writers are going to exercise their revenge for that, with steroids being the putative explanation.
MW: You may be right on Bonds, but I have talked to a lot of writers who believe he won’t have a problem getting in. I made up the 190 - I remember McGwire being stick-figure thin as a rookie.
- KenMike, re comment #49 — I can’t believe that you missed out on mentioning that Alomar’s eyes (as far as can be determined) continue to be on either side of his nose!
MW: Hee hee - sorry I missed that!
- NormSo, Mike, it’s your view that I need to open my own hall of fame because of my opinion that relievers and DHs don’t belong in the one in Cooperstown? And yet, so many actual voters agree with me, it would seem, given that there are so few relief pitchers and DHs in the Hall. Baseball is a nine-inning game of offence and defence; closers and DHs don’t play the game fully. As far as excelling at their given job, sure, let’s get Manny Mota in the Hall - best pinch-hitter I ever saw. And let’s get those hockey “enforcers” in the Hockey Hall of Fame too. Hogwash.
MW: The DH hasn’t really been around long enough to prove your point. Before Edgar, the only real DH even in the conversation was Hal McRae, and he wasn’t nearly a Hall of Famer. Paul Molitor was almost exclusively a DH for the last eight years of his career and hurt all the time for the first 12. The Hall of Fame is supposed to be a museum of baseball history that honours the history of and the people who played the game. The DH is a part of baseball history.
- Evan WhiteHey Mike,
One last thought about Dawson . . .
When Live-Aid was broadcast on July 13, 1985, I made sure to record Billy Ocean singing Caribbean Queen, but didn’t bother recording Ozzy Osborne on my Beta machine . . . During prime time, the ABC network cut in halfway through Led Zeppelin’s reunion and only broadcast four minutes of Stairway to Heaven, but ABC made sure that Hall & Oates anchored the final hour of the broadcast, with Maneater and Method of Modern Love bringing America to its knees.
In the 1980s, nobody batted an eye that Led Zeppelin opened for Hall & Oates and Tina Turner. Perceptions change over 25 years.
It’s the same with baseball. Using the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein sabermetric statistical analysis of the 2000s to look back on a career from the 1970s and 80s when the game was played AND MANAGED differently might not be fair to Dawson.
Every time Dawson came to the plate for the Expos, he had Jim Fanning or Bill Virdon in his ear telling him he’s there to “swing the bat” and “drive in runs.” It’s how he came up through the minor leagues and the style he adopted in his prime. Perhaps he would have adopted a different approach had he come around 20 years later and worked with people in the era of Gary Denbo and John Gibbons.
There is no arguing your point that Dawson’s OBP is 20 points lower than any other HOF outfielder. Just pointing out the fact that it was a different “old-school” era and Dawson might have been “raised” differently. The OBP emphasis of the 2000s was not so trendy in the 1980s.
Rather than using the latest sabermetric trends for statistical analysis, BBWAA writers also have the advantage of judging a player against his peers from the same era.
MW: And against his peers from the same era, Dawson’s OBP is still 20 points lower than any other HOF outfielder. I understand the whole “he may have been raised differently” argument, but how does that explain the fact that his contemporary stars like George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson, Rickey Henderson, etc., etc., etc., all understood the value of not getting out?
- Ken Paganyah and nobody hit many homers that year did they? How’d he do the next few years? he was almost retired before heading off to St.
louis for his late career resurgence. He is a decent power hitter that should never see the hall, end of story.
MW: Hardly the end of the story. And I love how revisionist historians will say that McGwire was a “decent” power hitter. He’s the all-time leader in home runs per at-bat.
- Kevinhi mike do think aa well look at chien ming wang somebody he look at do u think its a good idea
MW: English, please!
- jays fan from the startMW: I understand the whole “he may have been raised differently” argument, but how does that explain the fact that his contemporary stars like George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson, Rickey Henderson, etc., etc., etc., all understood the value of not getting out?
Those guys didn’t have Jim Fanning or Bill Virdon in their ear telling them to “swing the bat.”
MW: Well, except that guys like Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Al Oliver and even Warren Cromartie knew how to take a walk. Stunningly, under the same managers.
- Ken PaganYeah and we all know the reason for that. Like I said, without the juice, he is Fred McGriff at best!!
MW: Huh?
- KevinSorry I didn’t spell it out. If McGwire plays his entire career clean, I don’t think his numbers would be any better than Fred McGriffs.
MW: No one will ever know. Of course, no one really knows if Fred McGriff played his entire career clean, either.
- KevinMW: Well, except that guys like Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Al Oliver and even Warren Cromartie knew how to take a walk. Stunningly, under the same managers.
You are making a large qualitative assumption that these players “knew how to take a walk.” In fact, all you know is that they had a higher on-base percentage.
You are taking quantitative statistical analysis and using it to make a qualitative assumption about a player based on comparing one statistical category.
Looking back, maybe the Expos were better off with Sixto Lezcano or Ruppert Jones in right field all those years, because those guys took three more walks than Dawson every 100 at-bats.
MW: Now you’re taking the argument to an absurd level (though thank you for mentioning Sixto Lezcano, maybe the best name ever). You had said that perhaps the reason Dawson didn’t walk much was because his managers told him not to, but that argument would seem to be dismissed by the fact that other players on the same team, under the same managers, did walk.
- Ken PaganMW: “The DH is part of baseball history.”
That’s true. So are bullpen catchers abd middle relievers and pinch-hitters. And the Hall should recognize them - just not as a fully fledged Hall of Fame member.
As far as me being in the minority opinion on the inclusion of closers (or any other failed starters) in the Hall, that’s just not true. From a recent column from Rob Neyer:
“About relief pitchers, anyway. I’ve been as vocal as anyone about the relative value of relievers, and I could make the argument that Hoyt Wilhelm (because of all the innings) and Mariano Rivera (because of all the Octobers) are the only relievers who belong in the Hall of Fame.”
There’s no reason why the Hall can’t recognize these specialists without enshrining them as full Mickey Mantle/Walter Johnson/Andre Dawson (heh) members.
MW: I don’t understand why you have such an issue with DHs, but we’re going to have to agree to disagree here.
- Evan White