7:50 PM Eastern
It was really only a matter of time.
After all the news that came out of the Blue Jays’ clubhouse the last week of the season with regards to player discontent about Cito Gaston’s managerial and communication style and the schism in the coaching staff, there was no way that the staff would come back next season the same way it finished this one.
Tonight, the changes were made. They were announced at 6:00 PM on a Friday night because there is an embargo on announcements on World Series game days, and the Jays felt that if they waited until Tuesday, something would have leaked - especially with the Astros announcing that they’d hired Brad Arnsberg. They didn’t say anything about pushing back plans to take my wife out for her birthday dinner. Sigh.
What it basically comes down to is that Arnsberg and Gene Tenace are gone. One coach from each “side” moves on, and Brian Butterfield and Nick Leyva switch places.
Yes, Arnie and new Astros manager Brad Mills are really close and Mills wanted Arnsberg to join his staff. The move was likened to that of Leo Mazzone leaving Atlanta a couple of years back to go to Baltimore to work with his best friend Sam Perlozzo. I’m sure that had a lot to do with it, but there’s no question that Arnsberg was more than ready to go. Gene Tenace is officially retiring, but it really smells like a one-for-one deal to keep everybody happy.
Leyva has a much longer history with Cito, and is a former big-league manager, while Butterfield showed to be a terrific third-base coach and will do well returning there.
The new coaches are Rick Langford, who preceded Arnsberg as the Jays’ pitching coach, and Omar Malave. Langford takes over for Bruce Walton as bullpen coach, with the man they call Pappy moving into the main chair, taking over for Arnie. Malave is a Blue Jays lifer, having managed over 2,000 games in the minors. He’s getting his first shot in the big leagues and will take over as first-base coach with Dwayne Murphy moving off first to take over for Tenace as hitting coach.
Got all that?
I’ll miss Arnsberg a lot, a terrific guy and a great pitching coach, but Walton is a fantastic human being as well, and really knows his stuff. As Alex Anthopoulos said, Walton is very ready for the job, and has probably been ready for a few years, but has simply been blocked by the presence of Arnsberg. Walton also has a good relationship with Cito, which will no doubt lead to better communication all the way around.
The Jays’ announcement about the coaching shuffle led with the fact that Cito has announced he’ll be retiring from managing following the 2010 season, and that he’s accepted a four-year deal to be a consultant with the team following his last year as skipper. Gaston will advise and consult with the team in all areas of Baseball Operations, top to bottom. The fact that he’s still going to be with the team means, according to Alex, that there’s no need to see Cito as a lame-duck manager. It’s not as though he’s leaving the organization. Bobby Cox has also announced he’s leaving managing after this year and no one’s trotted out the “lame-duck” appellation with him.
Anthopoulos was asked if he believes that Gaston might be too “set in his ways” to be an effective manager with this club this coming season, and his answer was a quick no. He pointed to all the good things that happened once Cito came aboard in 2008, and in early 2009, and added a piece of revisionist history that’s becoming familiar.
There’s a message being sent that the 2009 Jays didn’t really fall off the table until early August, when Scott Rolen was traded and Alex Rios was let go. It’s not the first time that’s been said and, to an extent, it’s true. From the middle of May through the end of July, the Jays were more unlucky than bad. They weren’t getting blown out - almost ever - they were dropping games by a run seemingly every other night, or losing in extra innings. But for a bounce or twenty, they’d have been a lot better. But they weren’t.
The Jays were 26-33 (.441) from the beginning of the ugly nine-game road trip in May to the day they let Rios go. It’s tough to colour that as successful, although they were only four games under .500 overall. From that point on, they were 22-30 (.423) - which really isn’t that much worse, though there was that 13-26 tailspin before they won nine out of ten games.
But Alex also did say that while he felt the way the player unrest was potrayed in the media was slightly overblown (it wasn’t - not in this corner anyway), the moves made tonight were part of the process to rectify that situation.
That is to say - keeping Butterfield gives the players what they want, moving him back out to third base also makes the players happy. Making Murphy the hitting coach makes the players happy. Keeping Cito Gaston as the manager keeps upper management happy, and keeps the players from getting absolutely everything they want. Letting Arnsberg leave? Well, that definitely makes Arnsberg happy, and it probably does the same for Cito.
So what’s the upshot here? Cito is still the manager - which means that the Jays spend another year having to deal with the in-game managerial strategies that were so frustrating to have to watch at a lot of times this past season. At least he won’t have Kevin Millar to try his best to get on the field as often as possible next season.
Murphy as hitting coach makes them better than they were, Butterfield out on the field makes them better as well - as does having Leyva on the bench, because Cito has the trust factor in Leyva that could make him more receptive to Leyva’s advice.
Again, I like Walton a lot - it seems as though his move to greater prominence should be pretty seamless.
The moves also likely mean that the Jays will not be ratcheting up payroll in an attempt to “go for it” in 2010, which means the Roy Halladay sweepstakes will re-start in a couple of weeks.
And, of course, the search for a new skipper is on! Not now, of course, though I’m sure lists are being put together. Alex said that everyone on the current coaching staff who has interest in the job will be encouraged to apply for it, and that he would expect Butterfield and Leyva, at least, to do so. He also said that they’ll do an exhaustive search outside the organization as well. I would absolutely love to see Butterfield get a shot at steering this ship in 2011. I’m hoping that’s one of the reasons they kept him on.
Remember - Saturday night we’re on at 7:00 PM Eastern with Adam Lind on the line from Indiana taking your phone calls! Here’s hoping that you’ll tear yourselves away from the Leaf game for a while and tune in!
Rational, reasonable comments are always welcome!
Click here to subscribe to Wilner's blog
Mike,
Why do you feel these moves mean “that the Jays will not be ratcheting up payroll … so Halladay sweepstakes will resume”?
MW: I think that if they were planning on being a contending team in 2010, they would have changed the manager.
- KJaysFanToo bad we have to start all over. I think they are close enough to build up rather than step back. That thinking has led to a lot of disappointment in Toronto over the years with ALL of our teams.
As a long time fan I am pleased to see a GM who is fired up and thrilled to be there. If they are stripping it down, why Cito ? Will the selloff go through next season ? Why not shore things up ?
MW: I don’t think they’re anywhere close to starting all over. They’re not going to break up a good young core of Hill, Lind and Snider and all the young pitchers. Halladay will be moved, and so might Downs and Overbay be, but this won’t be a long-term rebuild. Why Cito? Because most sports fans in the country think that he’s a fantastic manager.
- jason BrittonThe one knock I have on Butterfield when he worked 3rd base was a tendency to send the runner home too often. Sometimes I thought he confused ‘aggressive’ and ‘reckless’.
Apart from that I don’t have a lot to say to this. Cito managing just one more season is a reasonable compromise. I have mixed feelings about Arnsberg leaving. On one hand, our pitchers were terrific! On the other, they wore out and broke down frighteningly quickly and that may have had to do with their work-outs and coaching.
They aren’t going for it in 2010, so I wonder what the payroll will be, I doubt it’ll be much. But will they increase it to go after a free agent or two to have under contract for 2011?
And what will we get for Our Roy? I’ll bet the BoSox will give us a ton after what happened to them in the post-season. But I would hate to see him pitching in our division. It’s hard enough already!
MW: I would think the Dodgers might pony up, too, and so might the Mets and Cubs. Whatever they get for Halladay, it will be plenty.
- isabella reyes“The moves also likely mean that the Jays will not be ratcheting up payroll in an attempt to “go for it” in 2010…” I don’t understand how today’s moves translate into this statement? Could you please elaborate Mike?
MW: See above.
- Logan5Michael,
Ugh, what a mess. Hopefully Walton learned a thing or two from Arnsburg, because we just lost a heck of a pitching coach.
The fact that these politics were happening in the clubhouse is indictment enough of Cito. He’s a horrible tactician, can’t put together a decent lineup, stymies young talent, and manages to rub more than a few the wrong way. What does he do right? Oh yeah, he’s good with the media.
The good thing is it sounds like Butterfield will be in place to take over as manager come 2011.
The biggest favour Beeston could have done for Alex would have been to have fired Gaston up right now instead of saddling him with a manager on his way out the door who’s ego has to be babysat.
The next big question, does Halladay follow Arnsburg to Houston?
MW: I doubt it.
- Uncle BenHappy Birthday Nat.
MW: That’s right!
- Kyle Salemthe difference is it’s bobby cox’s choice as to how long he wants to manage. it’s not cito’s. he is not wanted past next year so it’s ridiculous to keep a guy who you know you don’t want. and now that the players know he wont be back they can really throw in the towel and tank the season just to get rid of him.
MW: I don’t think that’s how it will go down.
- bobmaybe now the blue jays pitchers wont go on the DL as much with Arnsberg gone( less use of cutters) do you agree?
MW: How can one agree or disagree with “maybe”?
- IlanHi Mike,
I totally agree that this probably means that next year is a write-off and that the planning has begun for post 2010. That makes the next couple of months all the more intriguing especially wrt to Scutaro and Barajas. If next year is punted then there probably isn’t a place for them, although there are no shortstops coming through the system and who knows what level Arencibia will settle at. Wonder if we could pry Reid Brignac from Tampa Bay? He could be the Jays SS for 5 or 6 years.
MW: It would take a whole lot to get the Rays to part with Brignac.
- RonThanks again, Mike, for your consistently informative (and entertaining) posts. I hope you’ll continue regular bloggage to help us get through the winter.
MW: Thank you!
- kateTo tell you the truth Mike, I thought the point where the 2009 Blue Jays “fell off the table” was when Scott Downs got hurt in Philadelphia. At the time of Downs injury, the Jays were 37-31. Although the bullpen was not terrible by any means it did become somewhat unsettled and when Downs could not make it back a quickly as hoped things got ugly at times, such as the early July loss to Tampa Bay when they blew that 8 or 9 run lead. Commencing with Downs injury, the club went 29-52 in their next 81 games. If that’s not falling off the table, I don’t know what is.
MW: That’s falling off the table.
- Jim in Ohio$!#$!%^#%
That’s what I think about Cito staying on.
MW: You seem to have quite a bit of company across the Blue Jays’ blogosphere.
- Sean in LethbridgeI have to say this is a step backward for this organization bringing Cito back and losing Arnsberg.
Watching Cito last year, it really looks like a manager stuck in his ways and too stubborn to change. If it was keeping Rios and Wells at the 3-4 when they were the only guys not hitting then moving Wells to the 3-hole. Platooning Millar all year then keeping Ruiz on the bench. Not giving Lind a chance in the outfield in September and the bullpen mismanagement.
Reading those quotes by the players and the article by Kenny R, there was clearly something wrong regardless of how much the team is downplaying it now. It is one thing if the team was doing well or Cito was making the right moves, but this is a manager who wasn’t getting along with the team and wasn’t giving the team the best chance to win as you know and I know.
I just don’t get this move, especially when management has been watching the same games we were. They aren’t scratching their head with Millar playing all this much and Ruiz or Overbay on the bench?
I wonder how much this has to do with a 32-year-old rookie GM not wanting to start what hopefully for him is a long-term job by firing a so-called icon in this baseball town.I just don’t believe Alex when he says Cito is the best manager for this team. They say Cito a great manager for a team close to winning. Well this team isn’t close to winning and 1992 and 1993 were a long time ago. This would have been a great year for the organization to start moving on.
MW: With the team not close to winning, maybe Cito is the best manager for it.
- DanCito may not be the “lame duck” but why not just sign a 5 year consulting gig and start the managerial search now. What message does that send to potential incoming free-agents if we cannot tell them who the manager will be long term? Or I suppose this is an indication the Jays don’t plan on going after any big name free agents? This isn’t a good message to the fans either, if we’re making 2010 another rebuilding year I’m not buying tickets, simple as that.
MW: Except that the majority of the fans - the non-die-hards - think it’s a great message that Cito will be back and will get a farewell tour.
- Adam I.what makes you think of your statement:
The moves also likely mean that the Jays will not be ratcheting up payroll in an attempt to “go for it” in 2010, which means the Roy Halladay sweepstakes will re-start in a couple of weeks.
MW: See above.
- nickMike
I have to say I am very disappointed the Jays have kept Cito for another year. It also suggests, like you said, that there will not be a “go for it” attitude in 2010. I also suspect the Beeston dinner with Halladay was a “thanks for everything, and we are going to start shopping you” gesture. My concern is that unless the Jays send a message to their fans that they are intent on competing, and soon, the fan base will erode to the point of irrelevance. I have to admit my 30+ year “commitment” to the Jays is very close to being over. I suppose I could ask myself this, but I’ll ask you - What could/should the Jays do to send a message yhat they do indeed want to compete?
MW: Well, you know I think that they should up the payroll and make some good moves and free agent signings to try to make a push while they have Halladay and don’t have to give up a first-round pick. But I think they’ll send the message that they’re going to try to build a championship team in the very near future and the best way to do that is to pull back for a year.
- DanHey Mike, you are the sole voice of reason in the Toronto baseball media. I have a question. How is Arnsberg’s departure going to affect Halladay’s decision?
MW: I don’t think it will.
- ryanWhat’s with the (it wasn’t - not in this corner anyway) crap? If you’ve got something to say, say it. Isn’t that your job? Oh and happy birthday Mrs. Wilner, I guess.
MW: You guess? Gee, thanks. And there was no crap attached to that comment. I was simply saying that the situation wasn’t overblown by me. What I reported at the end of the season about the whole clubhouse thing was the truth, and not exaggerated. I’ll happily accept your apology, which I assume is shortly forthcoming.
- steveThanks for your Oct.30th
enry…interesting are the
coaching changes..Hey..keep
up the good work..like your
writings and the newsy stuff!
Thanks
Robert Goodwin
- Robert GoodwinThanks for the analysis, the kind of insider Jays’ stuff that is missing from other Toronto sports media outlets (and one of the reasons I subscribe). That said, as much as I want to believe this tinkering gives the Jays renewed energy, the cynic in me keeps wondering if the common denominator in many of these moves, which would seem to amount to a slew of promotions, from AA to Walton and Malave, isn’t that the Jays continue to shed payroll. And I worry about losing Arnsberg, who, from everything we hear, was one of the big reasons the Jays have had a good to great pitching staff the last couple of years. Beyond that, giving Cito a nice package would seem to be another feel good Flashback Friday kind of gesture. Here’s hoping that everything works out, but really, I’m from Missouri at this point. I want to see what the new management team can get for Doc. I want to see who will be playing shortstop and catcher next season. I don’t want to hear any more from guys like Tony Viner telling me, hey, if we thought spending money would help, we would. This, a couple of months after the team didn’t pony up and sign top (Canadian!)draft picks like Paxton and Eliopoulis. That would have helped Mr. Viner, as would securing a lead-off hitter who could play third base like Chone Figgins.
MW: There’s no reason not to be in a “show-me” mode with the Jays, and I’m sure they don’t expect any fans to be anything but.
- steveMike,
Ok, let’s take this one year at a time. Message received AA.
1. Who’s the #2 starter right now? Would Overbay+ (1-year left at $7MM) for Atlanta’s Vasquez (1-year left at $11.5MM) work in any way?
2. I noticed the 51’s Angel Sanchez is not on the 40-man, is he ready at SS?
MW: 1 - Not a chance. 2 - He’s already been in the big leagues, they’ll have to put him on the 40-man shortly or risk losing him as a minor-league free agent. He’s not a long-term solution.
- Jake in ThornhillMike; Why assume the team won’t in crease payroll; with the latest coaching announcements? Stability and clearly stated decisions may give players such as Scutarro, maybe even Doc to show interest in staying?
MW: See above.
- Peter WaudRestructuring the managment aspect of the team for the sake of team/player unity! Good idea, but not the fix that was really needed. Bottom line is Cito is still “the man” calling the shots, or rather lack of.
BA heading to Houston to hook up with his buddy. That’s a huge loss for the Jays! Wonder what Houston has in trade bait for Doc, now that Arnie is over there?
I wouldn’t say keeping Cito around means the organization won’t be spending for 2010. Cito is better at being the field boss when the choices are obvious as to who plays where and when. Having said that however, Cito is still the stubborn guy he has always been and will likely continue to do just the opposite of what you would expect during games or with his batting line-up! My way or the highway managing!
This bit about Cito being the “golden boy” in Toronto due to the 2 WS titles is wearing pretty thin if not completely worn out. As in any job, the bottom line should always be, “what have you done for me lately”!
Why any organization would look beyond success as in giving themselves the best possible chance to win and keep someone around who clearly is not the right choice just to appease the masses is beyond me.
Just knowing AA via the media and seeing the bright light he is for the future, likley wanted Cito moved into the consulting role for 2010 but was likely over ruled.
In my line of work we do something called RCFA (root cause failure analysis). Only when you have identified the cause of the failure, and taken action to prevent it again, can you feel confident a machine will function effectively.
I think the organization has identified the cause but have not removed the root of it! You can’t take shortcuts when fixing any problem as the cause is still there! Too bad, as in my mind 2010 is a season where it might just be make or break as to fan base!
Thank you and keep up the great work Mike, talk about dedicated, you must have a very understanding wife - hope you managed to take her out to dinner later on!
MW: I actually just showed up late to her dinner.
- Bob (from Burllington)keeping Gaston,big mistake
we needed new eyes in that position that have a direct effect of what goes on on the field, Alex this one will come back and bite you
MW: I’m pretty sure Alex knows exactly what he’s getting into with this move.
- baseballbobYo MW:
This reminds me of after 1998 season when Ash stuck by Tim Johson only to replace him in the middle of spring traing.
Not that i would ever compare Tim Johnson to Cito.
I would guess that there is a house cleaning coming at on the field to rid the locker room of anti Cito players.
I find this turn of events confusing, Cito is best suited to manage a Competive team, if the Jays are gonna go young wouldnt make sense to say good by to Cito Now?
MW: A house cleaning to rid the locker room of the anti-Cito players isn’t possible. But this is a message sent to the players that they don’t run the show.
- MattMike…It won’t be tearing myself from the Leafs, it will be tearing myself from the little ghosts and goblins ringing the door bell….If I want to watch the Leafs, I’ll turn it on around 9:30, watch two refs skating around with rule books, calling phantom hooks and high-sticks, and watching hockey giving points to losing teams in O.T. and shootouts. Or I can watch umpires forgetting rules in playoff MLB…Bring on the NLL and the Rock with its new Excelsior coaching staff (I’m proud to say that) but even my beloved game of lacrosse is being changed for the worse by new rules on agression. Do people have nothing better to do than sit around and change great games that’ve been around for 100 years?
- chris m.Mike, how do these moves likely mean that the Jays will not be ratcheting up payroll for next season?
- Elilike tiptoeing throgh a korean minefield . keep expecting to see klinger coaching third base .
MW: Would he get a special uniform?
- GEORGE MARSHALLto say the least, i am very disapointed in Alex A. not naming a new manager. This is a big mistake, and people like myself have watched the jays for 20 plus years know Gaston hasn’t got it!! So Alex has made a big mistake already!! This club needs a new manager,and the GM , should have been bold enough to have made it happen!!. I have lost interest already!! So much for change!!
- BLAKE FIDLERA couple of things-
while I can’t say I’m overly confident the payroll goes up, I’m not sure I follow your logic in why the coaching changes imply it won’t?
On the surface they don’t seem to be related. One could possibly even argue that keeping the manager known for working with veteran-laden “automatic” teams would hint at the opposite conclusion.
Regarding the “epocs” of the past season, I haven’t seen anyone else approach it like this but here goes:
Through May 18:
27-13 (on this as a turning point we all agreee)
May 19 - May 28
0 - 9 (This is, in my view, an aberrational bit of radically bad luck and slumping. A total of 13 runs scored in the first 8 of those is telling. and three of these were 1 run loses)
May 29 - June 26
14 - 11
Small sample size is at work here of course but this is .560 - a rate which over a full season works out to 91 wins.
Which is to say they were playing perfectly reasonable ball through pretty much half a season with the exception of one very fluky losing streak. At that point there winning percentage was .547 (89 win pace) and they were ONE game out of the wild card.
June 27 - July 31
(I select the deadline just to make reference to the argument the team only went south after Rolen was dealt)
8 - 20 (.286)
It’s pretty hard to put a positive spin on here. 18 of those games were against NY/Boston/TB and Philadelphia. But they were 3-7 against the others.
On the other hand, 10 of the 20 loses were by one run, another 4 by two runs.
Aug 1 - Sept 20
17 - 29 (.370)
That’s over 1/4 of a season of awful ball. Also, there were only 6 one run loses here so your point on that is well taken.
September 21 - 30
9 - 1
Obviously, just as much a fluke as the nine-game-loser. In essence, this was just sort of getting back the karma from the bad luck then. (as if such things were destined to balance which they are not). There were 4 one run wins here too.
and of course the 0-3 at the end that doesn’t fit that pattern.
So the upshot is that from June 27 to September 20, the Jays went 25-49 and there’s really no way to explain that away. If we take the “fluke” out of the good days and out of the bad days, then you have a first “half” of the season that was 41-25 (.621) and a second “half” that was 25-52 (.325)
So all those words to say this - The Jays were a credible team playing reasonably good ball and legitimately “in the race” through June 26 - almost half the season is a reasonable sample.
After that, they went directly over the cliff. I do not know what happened, and I’m in no position to theorize but the only publicly known factor that springs to mind is this:
From June 27 to july 9 the Jays were playing against the very best teams in baseball and struggling a bit - in isolation that shouldn’t have been a crushing blow to the season. BUT, right in the middle of that bit of -on-field struggling, Rosenthal’s “Halladay is gone” piece hit the streets.
From a superficial long-distance point of view, it certainly APPEARS that this story - and the weeks of speculation and uncertainty which follows, dealt a huge psychological blow to the team that they never recovered from.
Is there ANYTHING to that? I mean, there has to be SOME explanation for a team doing so well to suddenly do a complete 180 besides just strength of schedule right? If for no other reason than that over the last few years they haven’t been awful vs. NY and Boston the way they were this year.
MW: There does have to be some explanation, but I don’t think the Rosenthal story is it. Good work.
- WillRainCito’s comment in the Saturday press conf were telling about doc. He will be traded guareenteed. I want a young 3rd base and ss prospect if possible.
This also means that Marco is gone aswell.
Any legs to the Bradley/wells trade?
MW: I don’t think there are any legs to that if the Jays and Cubs have to split the difference in the contracts.
- Kevin Yas much as I dislike wells’ game, this alleged trade scenario with the cubs is just awful…60 million for milton bradley?, Id rather have VW for the extra 60 mill…also, with retaining of cito, and letting arnsberg go, i think Alex A is off to a pretty slow start
- jpAnd it is only a matter of time before Halladay is gone!!!
MW: Isn’t that what I said?
- AlLets not forget that Beeston is still here..The Jays under this guy (sans Gillick) are 63 games below .500..Pathetic really..Somehow, because he is such a nice guy, he gets a mulligan..Nobody says anything bad about him including Mr. Wilner..Why is that?..Gatson gets butchered every time he makes a mistake and this guy loses 3 of the top 4 picks in last years draft and people just shrug it off..He has now hired another rookie GM, the Jays 3rd in a row and how has that turned out so far?..Nobody talks about that either because Alex is such a great guy..So is that what it takes to keep a job with the Jays?..Just be a Ghandi type and things will roll off your arse like cabbage..
This team is in desperate need of an experienced GM just like the Leafs and the Raptors did..Someone with a proven track record of success..Someone the minuscule Jays fan base can believe in..But hey we have the old farts of yesteryear running this team and they seem to enjoy parading out the 92-93 champs year after year like luggage..
MW: Alex is actually the Jays’ 4th rookie GM in a row. Beeston didn’t lose the draft picks.
- ray bNow that makes me want to buy season tickets..
So if we all agree that we’re tearing this thing down and next year is going to be a year geared towards developing for the future, someone explain to me how it makes any sense at all to have Cito Gaston as the guy to lead that sort of club? Has he not done enough to prove that he’s not the right guy for this type of situation? This one has all the signs of a move made to not upset the casual fanbase as opposed to the right baseball move. A very disappointing first major move by AA.
MW: I’m pretty sure it wasn’t up to Alex.
- karimI read about a rumour that a scout and an executive says has some legs and truth to it. Vernon Wells for Milton Bradley. There is 107 million left on Wells’ contract and 21 million left on Bradley’s. The Jays would have to pay half the 86 million difference between the contracts. I can’t stand Vernon Wells but this is not a good deal. If it were an even swap, contract for contract then I would do the deal in a second because I would give Wells away for free just like they did with Rios. Getting rid of Wells would create a hole defensively as Snider and Lind cannot play center field. It would also keep Lind in the outfield rather then DH or 1st base. They would definitely have to sign a center fielder that can play above average defense. If he can hit that would be a bonus but Wells can’t hit worth a lick anyways. I think the Cubs may have a better deal like acquiring a Zito for Bradley instead. Zito seems to finally be coming around.
- DomenickMIlton Bradley?
I can’t believe it. One thing I don’t think Andropoulos wants is Milton Bradley and the 9 large Louis Vuitton steamer trunks of baggage that he brings with him. Splitting the difference on the salaries makes sense but nothing else does. I do believe AA wants to trade Wells, But I don’t think he wants Bradley here. Could there be any other (real) trading partners out there?
MW: For Wells? Probably not, but I don’t think this one is too real, either. The best reason to give Wells away is to get rid of the contract, not to get rid of 40% of the contract. And it’s Anthopoulos.
- isabella reyesI actually had a little hope for the coming season. Heard rumors of Rogers improving the payroll. Beeston meeting with Halladay in Florida, as if there was hope in keeping him. Now I see these latest moves, including Arnsberg leaving. And this quote from Cito:
My gut is that I think Doc wants to be on a winning team,” Gaston said. “He’s probably sitting there looking at A.J. [Burnett] out there pitching [for the Yankees in the World Series], knowing that that’s where he’d like to be. It’s not about money with Doc. It’s about him being on a winning team.
“I can’t speak for Doc, but my gut feeling is if he’s here next year with us, then he’ll probably leave after next year. Hopefully, if that’s the case, then we can get something for him before he leaves.”
Now I’m left thinking that this team is headed in the other direction. This does not forbode well for the team does it?
MW: It doesn’t bode well for 2010, no.
- Phil RHi Mike
Just curious why you think that changing the coaching situation means that the Jays will not bump the payroll?
- AdamHi mike,
1) Adam lind said that JP turfed the idea of him moving to 1B after the 2008 season, after planning for that move. Lind didn’t say why. Why would JP cancel such a plan? I think Lind should be training for 1B now (actually should have been playing there vs LHP all season), what say you? He seemed pretty confident in his ability to play there.
2) Was Butterfield demoted, in reality? If so, why would he stick around, considering his great skills and good reputation?
3) It looks like the Jays won’t be “going for it” in 2010. Do you think they strip payroll down below $60MM or stay around $80MM?
3b) Who plays SS in each case? Who catches?
Thanks for the awesome rain delay show. I sometimes enjoy them as much as the game, and it’s a real treat when the delay lasts more than an hour, and we get great Jays Talk followed by a game! The World Series will have to do tonight, though ;)
MW: 1 - I think it was because J.P. thought he was going to move Overbay at the deadline last year, and he almost did. If Lind can handle first, I’d like to see him there after Overbay is done. 2 - I honestly don’t think it matters. 3 - No idea, but I wouldn’t expect it to be Scutaro and Barajas.
- andy mcHey Mike
So Cito won’t be managing the Jays in 2011, he will be a consultant. What is the point of letting him manage next season? It seems obvious they don’t have much confidence in his abilities so why not just move him into the consultant role immediately? Do you think this is a bit gutless?
MW: I don’t think it’s gutless at all. I think that Beeston believes (and correctly so) that Cito still has a lot of traction with most of the fans and (incorrectly so) that Cito deserves the opportunity to leave on his own terms.
- rickMicheal,
Like Chris Jericho you are the best in the world today at what you do.
Would you be in favour of the Jays packaging Halladay with Wells this off-season in order to get rid of the horrible Wells contract?
A Bradley for Wells swap seems unlikely, but the Cubs do seem like a team that would be interested in Halladay and able to take on Wells contract. You’d figure Halladay would put them in contention pretty quickly. Obviously, we wouldn’t be getting much back from the Cubs, maybe a pitcher and some prospects.
MW: The thing that bothers me is losing the potential bounty that could come back for Halladay simply in order to get rid of Wells’ contract. I have gone back and forth on that idea a lot since July, and I’m still not sure where I stand.
- Uncle BenGreetings Mike.
If the Jays don’t “ratchet up” the payroll sufficiently to put a competitive product on the field, I believe that they risk permanently impairing the franchise value. Recall they were setting record attendance lows at the end of ‘09.
I am one of their several dozen non-corporate season ticket holders. No chance I am sitting indoors on April weekends any longer to watch a team with no hope.
Honestly Mike, I am one of the most difficult types of fans to alienate. But if they don’t bring in some players I will not be renewing my seats. Why should I? Walk up seats will be easy enough to get.
MW: Walk up seats are always easy enough to get. I can’t tell you why you should renew your season tickets, but if you want, we can start up the debate again about the utility of watching major-league baseball even with a team that’s not going to make the playoffs.
- Cleveland Markare you able to post the lind interview and maybe even the rain delay show? thanks
MW: I will, after tonight’s game.
- Matt G.Mike
The problem I have with “taking a step back” in 2010 is that is what they said last year about 2009. Now we have two “step back” years back to back. Was Wells’ terrible year and the expectation that’s all he can give from herein, Rios’ “non-development/regression” and trade, and the Rolen trade enough to need another year to reach a competitive status in the Al East? Aside from Snider’s development as a legit power hitter, and more seasoning of the young starters, I don’t see how 2011 will be that much better than this year or next. What is supposed to happen in 2011 for the Jays to suddenly emerge as a contender?
MW: Snider is supposed to develop into a legit middle-of-the-order power hitter, Lind is supposed to maintain his success, Wells is supposed to rebound, the Blue Jays are supposed to find a catcher, guys like Cecil, Romero, Rzepczynski and maybe Zach Stewart are supposed to show that they’re ready, Marcum and Litsch are suppose to show that they’re healthy and the Halladay bounty is supposed to come through.
- DanMike,
Re your Mussina comments last night: I’ve always disliked Mussina, and was irritated by his winning 20 games in 2008, but found solace in that he was never on a World Series winner. Maybe it’s beccause he’s one of those guys who seems to have been blessed with everything - talent translating into riches, looks, and brains (didn’t he zip through a Stanford 4 year degree in economics in 3 years - or was that A.J. Burnett?). Anyway, what bothered me most about him was when he complained to the Baltimore manager about leaving him in games too long - not exactly a throwback to the stalwarts of a previous era; I mean it’s not as if he wasn’t being fairly compensated for his efforts…
That business in the 1993 All-Star game: what Mussina did was puerile, but I’ve never understood why Cito didn’t PITCH him; Mussina was a young star in his home ballpark, and I can’t think of ANY reason why Cito seeme d to make a point of not putting him in the game - it struck me as being petty and pigheaded, something Cito has been accused of more than once…
MW: I don’t know that it would have been petty of Cito - he didn’t know the guy then and, after all, Cito did pick Mussina to be on the team. I think it was just an old-school move by Cito, young pitchers need to step aside for the veterans.
- KenIf they aren’t going for it in 2010–and they aren’t–it makes all kinds of sense to keep Cito Gaston.
(1) It sends a message to the players: the lunatics aren’t in control of the asylum. You do not dictate who gets to manage you
(2) I’m not sure the kind of manager the Jays would want to get would be interested in managing in these circumstances. If they are really going for it in 2011, they’ll have had a whole 2010 season to showcase their excellent young players and they should appear more attractive to a big name manager
MW: 1 - True. 2 - Untrue.
- isabella reyesMike, I’m trying to look out for you and the fellas in the box here - but this wells for Bradley deal could be a threat to fan 590 national security. You don’t want him storming your booth and punching you! I’d sit mr. Anthropolos down and set him straight….
MW: I could handle Milton. Well……Ashby could.
- Andrew SorlieHi Mike,
While watching game one of the world series with my friends, the singing of God Bless America came on in the 7th.
I was under the impression that this is something most baseball teams do (excluding the Jays), but they argued it’s only done at Yankee Stadium.
Now I just watched game 3, and I know they do it in Philly now. Is it only in post season that other teams sing it? Or am I correct in remembering being at ballgames in Cleveland, Chicago etc. and having God Bless America sung?
Thanks,
Diego
MW: During the regular season, it is only played at Yankee Stadium during the 7th inning stretch. During the World Series, it happens everywhere.
- DiegoHi again Mike,
Another conversation we had in game one, when Lee came out in the 9th was about average number of pitches thrown per start. We discussed how Manuel was going to let Lee go about 125, and talked about other pitchers who could do that. Halladay obviously, but then a friend said Burnett.
He seemed sure that Burnett had thrown 125 as a Blue Jay.
Now I just don’t remember this, and i’ve tried to find it on the internet, but I can’t. Can you tell me if he has, and if so, how many times?
Thanks, Diego
MW: Burnett threw at least 120 pitches seven times as a Blue Jay, but only exceeded 124 twice. One 125-pitch outing (May 27/07, 4-2 loss at Minnesota) and one of 130 pitches (June 7/07, 5-3 loss to T-Bay).
- DiegoMike,
First, go Phillies! They’re now climbing an uphill battle and need to win today’s game to stay in it. Hopefully, AJ will blow game 5.
There are alot of Cito gripers out there. And like the other posters and yourself, there are lots of mistakes that Cito made last year. But sentimentally, I think the fan base likes Cito. I like Cito but I don’t like his management style either and hope that he can improve next year by playing the numbers correctly and try to win games.
Sure, there were a few games where the Jays were unlucky, but you can look at the stats and see that the Jays woes were really due to the lack of hitting in late innings and the inability to hold games when in the lead. You can explain some of that with the absent BJ Ryan and the falling apart of Downs (the Jays were towards the bottom in Holds and save %, and wins (17)/ losses (30) in relief).
Another part of the problem was 1B. You had Millar who hits LHP much better than Overbay and vice versa. A pitching change would be made in the 7th inning that would favor switching them out but Cito wouldn’t do it. Part of the problem was Wells’ hitting at home and him being in the 3 or 4 spot in the order. There were lots of problems that were solvable. Rolen’s departure to Cincinnati didn’t help things either.
And even though the team finished 6th in the AL for batting in terms of OPS (.775), their OPS batting in the 9th inning: .601 (13th), RISP: .749 (12th). Cito only used a pinch hitter 40 times (13th). His team had the lowest “platoon advantage” at 41%. The opposition took advantage of these weaknesses in the lineup and Cito’s unwillingness to change the odds to the Jays’ favour.
So lots of things to improve, just looking at the stats. The bullpen for one, more left handed hitters for two, and better management from Cito. I really believe that if you fix the first two things, the team might contend, despite Cito. And then, the team might be a little more “lucky” because their odds of winning are truly better.
- Timre: comment #34..
Yes in fact is was Beeston..You said it yourself on this blog remember?..He was trying to set an example to his picks that he won’t budge much from his offers..We debated on this idea as he was just a temp at the time..
After all, he is the president of baseball operations and its he has the final say so either way, he lost the picks..Funny how you don’t debate his overall record as president of the Jays..60 something games below .500 is pathetic and he should be gone..No question about it..
MW: I’d like you to find where I said that it was Beeston who decided not to budge on the draft pick prices. I don’t debate his overall record because it’s so incredibly not that simple.
- ray bHey Mike
Post 41 MW - I don’t think it’s gutless at all. I think that Beeston believes (and correctly so) that Cito still has a lot of traction with most of the fans and (incorrectly so) that Cito deserves the opportunity to leave on his own terms.
Completely agree Mike, Cito may be a fan favourite but the decision to allow him to leave on his own terms is a poor one, the teams needs should come first. I like Cito as well, but his fate should be determined by his performance, and based on last season he should be moved into his consultant role immediately.
It just appears Beeston is using this consulting role as a nice way of telling Cito that his services are no longer wanted as manager. Step up, do the right thing for the team and get a new manager in place for the 2010 season. Even if 2010 is a rebuilding year, its not like Cito excels with his handling of the rookies. Another year of Cito trying to turn a blue chip prospect like Travis Snider into a platoon player does nothing but hurt the future of this franchise.
- RickHey Mike,
From Richard Griffin today:
“This clubhouse crisis is not over.
The coaches changed, but the manager won’t.
Gaston doesn’t feel he did anything wrong. Management is aware the crisis is ongoing.
They may have a new front-office assistant sooner than they think.”
Agree or disagree?
MW: I agree with the first three lines, but not the third.
- BretMike…
a) Do you think Jason Varitek would be a wise pick-up(if available) for Toronto, or is he a de facto switch-hitting Rod Barajas?
b) All the talk of Cito this and Cito that…Joe Girardi was considered a bum in 2008 and one step from the unemployment line and now thanks to C.C Sabathia, A.J. Burnett, Nick Swisher and Mark Teixera he’s a genius..What would/could Cito do with those acquisitions?
MW: A - No, I don’t. He can’t do the job anymore. I’d rather have Barajas. B - Sit back and watch, which is all you need to do with some of those guys. And I don’t think Girardi was considered a bum.
- chris m.I regret every starting that petition to have Beeston stay on. Not saying it in any way influenced him staying (all of 5 or so people signed it). But if, as you assert and I agree, that it was Beeston’s decision to keep Cito then somebody needs to force him to wear socks everyday until he agrees to put Cito out to pasture.
- Sean in LethbridgeHi Mike,
>> Because most sports fans in the country think that he’s a fantastic manager.
I’m not really arguing your point but is there recent evidence to support that? For me, I have continue to have great respect for Cito (as a person, for past accomplishments, etc) — but I am more than ready to move on in terms of him being the 2010 Manager.
MW: The average, everyday sports fan in the city holds Gaston in very, very high regard. At least the ones I run into do.
- CharlesHi Mike,
The conspiracy theory guy in me smells a rat, humour me if you will. Is it possible that Cito is only the face of the franchise and Leyva is actually the manager? They give Cito the 4 year extension and his buddy Leyva to make it taste better but keep Butter around in cae their not happy with the way Leyva performs this year. The team may not even know since Leyva and Gaston are so tight. I am interested in your thoughts.
MW: My thoughts are that you need to take off the tin foil hat. There’s not a chance that Cito would ever stand for that kind of arrangement.
- TimMike,
1) Do you have any non-tender candidates that AA should be watching (other than JJ Hardy)?
2) Could the Jays trade Doc for a single, superstar type player (Prince Fielder type), and if so, do you think that would be a good idea? Who would be a good target for such a deal, if you were in charge.
3) Mike, brass tacks here. IF you were in charge, with full payroll authority and a committment from Rogers for up to $120MM, would you “go for it” in 2010? Why? Why not?
Thanks.
MW: 1 - Maybe Kelly Shoppach (though I don’t think Hardy is a non-tender candidate so much anymore). 2 - I wonder if they could, but I don’t think it would be that great an idea. I’d want to pull in a few high-quality young players. 3 - I certainly would - go back and read the post I put up in September that was called “not a rebuild, a remodel” or some such.
- andy mcMike,
Alex Anthopulous` coaching staff re-shuffling and JP`s termination 2 days before the season ended makes the most
sense if AA and Beeston concluded the “Cito Mutiny“was another JP fabrication.
When the “tensions“ became public I recall you reporting/blogging that you were aware of the anti-Cito tensions in the Jays locker room, that these tensions were long simmering and that you never reported them because no player would go on record with them.
But I did find this clip of the Grill Room where you told Garth Wheeler there was no discontent within the Jays locker room as late as Sept 3.
http://blog.canoe.ca/inyourgrill?disp=videos
That seems to go beyond not reporting on the tensions, and in fact reporting that there were none.
Your words then makes me wonder if the “Cito Mutiny“ was in fact another JP manipulation.
AA and Beeston seem to think so. Its the only way keeping Cito makes any sense.
MW: No, it’s really not. There are a lot of other ways that keeping Cito makes sense, some of which have been mentioned here, others of which were mentioned by Jeff Blair earlier in the week in his column in the Globe. But as for your accusation that I was lying to Gareth Wheeler (and what are you doing hanging around here so regularly if you think so little of me?) - I didn’t find out about the clubhouse unrest until the Jays’ final homestand of the season.
- ProkopecI suppose if the Jays are not likely to be contenders next year then probably Cito can’t do too much harm with his weird strategies but I would prefer to see him replaced now and moved upstairs.
- PaulHi Mike,
I’ve never professed to being any kind of baseball expert and I never will be.
Something that has me curious is…
If “A.A” is looking to put his stamp on this team, What sort of player movement can we possibly see?
Are we looking at a big move, or a series of minor moves??
Love your show, and can’t wait for the 2010 season.
MW: I think we’re looking at a very big move - the trading of Roy Halladay.
- DarrenMike I am baffled by people who think the Jays are going to add to their payroll in any significant way in 2010.
As I’ve mentioned here before the jays are on the hook for approx $72 US in salary for just 7 players (Wells,Ryan,Downs,Overbay,Encarnacion,Halladay and one other player who I am at a complete loss to remember because of my age). You now have 18 more players to pay. Of the players who are in the high paid group the only realistically tradeable commodities are Halladay and Downs. If you trade Halladay you are saying we give up in the near future to contend. You can’t replace 18 to 20 wins with lots of innings pitched easily. The only hope you have is to keep Halladay and pray to God that some of the young pitchers improve and one or two of the injured pitchers comes back healthy. I am not convinced you are going to get more now than you would by waiting and barring injury some bonehead GM will pony up at the trade deadline. If you put your realistic hat on for a minute and notwithstanding the start to 09, how many people really believed you could lose your number 2,3 and 4 pitchers and compete. The young pitchers showed what they are at this point in their careers. They are throwers who have yet to become pitchers (even Romero who shows a lot of talent showed evidence of this during the year). One thing I do know is they had better find a closer. The bullpen by committee thing does not work.
I am just curious but on that very topic, why is it so difficult to develop a two pitch dominant pitcher in your own organization?
MW: Because they’ve been developing so many guys who wind up being able to control three or four. The guy you couldn’t remember is Aaron Hill.
- mike glattMike…
To say you were shocked at Jeter being selected over Mauer would be an understatement, after listening to you last night (Sunday) and you obviously don’t like him now more than before..But you’re not unlike the Gretzky bashers who say:
1)he never got hit
2)the refs favoured him was.
3) Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Fuhr et al made him the guy he was.
And the answer I usually give the Gretzky bashers I see daily is that he has 56 records to his name and dominated from the time he was a kid in Brantford, at a time when there were no NHL refs or McSorley bodyguard or any other Oilers to help him…Nobody hopes the Yanks fail more than me, but Jeter to me, is brilliant and the bigger the stage, the bigger he performs..Although the numbers Mauer put up with are indisputable, it’s not Jeter’s fault he was picked and your wrath might be misguided. Maybe direct it at the pro-N.Y. voters, not #2 in pinstripes……There’s actually people happy Wayne failed in Phoenix and is out a bunch of cash…can’t see it myself after what he’s done for hockey in Canada and U.S. And Jeter has always been clean and as brainy a player as I’ve ever seen…There’s no shortage of jerks around in baseball to wish failure upon. I’ll clarify that Jeter didn’t dominate like Gretzky did. I just picked 99 as a comparison because he seems to be a target for peoples’ slings and arrows as well.
MW: There is no comparison between Jeter and Gretzky, who was the best in the history of his sport. I didn’t mean to insinuate that I’m upset with Jeter for winning the award. I’m not, I’m upset at the people who made a mockery of the award by voting for him.
- chris m.“Murphy as hitting coach makes them better than they were”
I don’t dispute that at all, but why is that? Is he a better hitting coach than Tenace or a bad first base coach?
MW: All the players seem to like and respect him, and I believe he’ll be a lot more communicative than Tenace was.
- ColinMW: …as for your accusation that I was lying to Gareth Wheeler (and what are you doing hanging around here so regularly if you think so little of me?) - I didn’t find out about the clubhouse unrest until the Jays’ final homestand of the season.
______________________________
I was not suggesting you were lying to Wheeler. In fact, I meant the opposite.
The fact you sincerely believed there was no discontent in the Jay’s locker room as late as September makes me question the suggestions on long simmering tensions between the players and Cito.
The fact you later blogged that you thought JP may have been fired because he was believed to be the source of the story and that you thought he was lying when you heard him on Hogan’s show denying that he knew about the player’s discontent, suggests to me that he tried peddling this story to you too.
I’ve read what Blair said and I agree with some of it. But whther the players hate Cito or whether it was a JP ploy is important to evaluating the shuffle and to getting a read on AA.
The 90s version of Cito who made unconventional managerial decisions but who was loved by most of his core players was a good thing because those players played their hearts out for him.
The latter day version of Cito, who makes absolutely idiotic managerial decisions, simply can not be tolerated if his core players hate him.
Thats all I am saying.
MW: OK. Truth is, J.P. didn’t try to peddle the “everybody hates Cito” story to me, but didn’t deny it when I spoke to him about after I had spoken to about a half-dozen players and a few coaches. It definitely wasn’t a J.P. ploy.
- ProkopecMW: …It definitely wasn’t a J.P. ploy.
_________________________
This is very bad news for the Jays.
An overbearing accountant turned quasi “baseball guy” imposing his will on a neophyte GM who is himself a quasi “baseball guy” led to dismal seasons in 95/96.
The only hope is Gillick comes back and helps AA stand up to Beeston.
Where are you going Pat Gillick? Jays Nation (all 12 of us) turns its weary eyes to you….boo hoo hoo………..boo hoo hoo!
- ProkopecIt seems that David Purcey is already out of the Jays’ plans for a potential rotation spot. I can’t belive (just looked this up) that he will be 28 yrs. old around Opening Day 2010. I figured that he would have had one more strong kick at the can in 2010 to show if he can be a starter with the Jays. Will he be on the Opening Day roster in 2010, or will he bounce up and down between Las Vegas/Toronto and then possibly be waived/traded? As always, I’d like to hear your take on this. Thanks, Mike.
MW: Why does it seem as though Purcey is out of the plans? As of now, he goes to Spring Training with a shot at a spot in the rotation, without question. But the guy has to learn how to throw strikes.
- Dom from WoodbridgeMussina didn’t pitch in the 1993 AS Game because there was a three way battle going on in the AL East at the break between the Jays, Yankees, and Orioles. Gaston didn’t intend to use his starter (Hentgen) and the Yankees had requested that their pitcher (Key) be used as little as possible, if at all. Under those circumstances, Gaston decided not to use the Orioles’ guy. If nothing else, Gaston demonstarted that in this one regard, he was the precise opposite of Sparky Anderson (who liked to have pitchers from his division opponents work as much of the game as possible.)
MW: I’m not sure if that’s true.
- Daniel McIlroyWe’ll see how the argument that the non-diehard fans love Cito will hold up if the team starts off badly and is looking out of it by midsummer.
Good grief, the limping down the stretch this year brought out low attendance crowds at several games. Beeston staying on is no doubt a positive but with no significant changes in personnel (especially if the payroll doesn’t increase) and the same old manager - why would anyone expect a different outcome?
It could even be worse if you can’t replace Halladay’s wins should he be gone by Opening Day.
I’m not sure this situation can even be called a holding pattern or that it can be considered bottom. We need a new manager now, who can join the team and begin to put together an uphill climb.
And since the Yankees won tonight I’ll apply Yogi’s “deja vu all over again” comment to Anthopoulos. It may be unpopular and not fair to kick the new boss already, but I feel like we’re opening the Christmas presents to see the toy we already got last year and grew tired of.
And finally, off-topic here maybe, but if you were the Phillies and decided you wanted to replace Brad Lidge next year - who might you find available among established pitchers?
MW: Jose Valverde is the biggest-ticket free agent closer out there. He’s not too bad.
- Rob Mmr wilner
since the end of the season i havnt really become vocal or negative with any recent jays news, but the news of Cito remaining a year and then walking away really confuses me and reconfirms what ive been saying all along
The blue Jays are run like a second rate franchise and a ruderless ship without a solid plan in mind or blueprint to follow. How can anyone take this team serious when you have ownership sticking with a lame duck manager for one season and then make more in house changes
I really feel for the new gm. No one can say that he wasnt forced to endure this move for one season and then maybe will be able to put his own stamp on the manager position.
Another thing to consider is how does this look for inpending free agents. I know money speaks the loudest volumes but when money is similar between two completing clubs, players will look at the direction and stability of the franchise
This move proves one thing to me is that this once proud franchise is being run like the local circus.
MW: I think you’re overreacting just a little bit.
- mark in caledoniaAlso I hear that Pedro Martinez is a free agent this year. Is that correct? And if so, do you think it is worth the Jays persuing him at all?
MW: Yes, it is and no, I don’t.
- Karsten Grubberre post 71
All im saying mike is if cito knows he aint coming back and the Jays have agreed to allow him to go out this way is cheating the fans.
If the jays want him to go out with class, move him upstairs in an admin role or have cito day during the season.
Its great what cito helped bring Toronto but i dont see model franchise like the Yankees or Red sox running their ships in this manner.
The fans are what counts here and seeing this farce for what it is isnt overreacting its hoping the Jays organization will wake up and get back to winning baseball
- mark in caledonia