1:50 PM Eastern
The Blue Jays began the rehabilitation of their image to the fanbase this morning with the firing of J.P. Ricciardi. According to the official news release, J.P. “will be leaving his position ….. effective immediately”, which sounds a lot nicer than “Ricciardi was terminated” or “Ricciardi was let go” or “Ricciardi had to be canned to satisfy the bloodlust of a fanbase that seems to be slipping away”. Alex Anthopoulos takes over, I’m assuming on an interim basis since the presidency of the team is still up for grabs.
The move isn’t a surprising one, but the timing is. There’s no question in my mind that the announcement was moved up about 48 hours because of the massive crapstorm that began with Ken Rosenthal’s “Player Mutiny” story that came out yesterday. It’s not so much that interim President Paul Beeston wanted to deflect attention away from the Cito story, I don’t think, as it is that Rosenthal has gotten a lot of Blue Jays scoops over the past few years and it’s not unreasonable to believe that J.P. himself may well have been the leak.
As I mentioned yesterday (either in the comments section or on The JaysTalk, I can’t remember which - maybe both), I had a really hard time listening to what turned out to be J.P.’s final interview as the Jays’ G.M., on the Fan’s bullpen yesterday. He tried his best to distance himself from the whole Cito story, to say the right things, to not throw anyone under the bus. I didn’t believe most of what he said, which is rare for me.
So now the Blue Jays have their fifth General Manager in club history, following Pete Bavasi (54-108, .335 - 1 manager), Pat Gillick (1352-1297, .510 - 5 managers), Gord Ash (541-575, .485 - 4 managers) and Ricciardi (642-661, .493 - 4 managers). Gillick’s teams won five division titles, two pennants and two World Series. Nobody else’s ever made the playoffs.
When Ricciardi was hired, he immediately made several unpopular moves with an eye to the long-term, including trading away fan favourites Alex Gonzalez and Paul Quantrill for salary relief and cutting a swath through the scouting department. The first trade he ever made brought in Eric Hinske and Justin Miller for Billy Koch. Hinske won the A.L. rookie of the year but never fulfilled that early promise, mostly because of a broken hand in Spring Training the next year - though most seem to believe that he ate his way out of a good career.
I’m not going to go over J.P.’s entire C.V. here, his moves have been debated in this space ever since there’s been a this space. A lot of the things for which he takes the most heat were out of his control (low-balling Carlos Delgado, signing Vernon Wells to that monster deal, Russ Adams forgetting how to throw a baseball), a lot of his very good moves get ignored by the bloodthirsty masses (trading Shannon Stewart for Ted Lilly, via Bobby Kielty; picking up Justin Speier for Mark Hendrickson; getting Marco Scutaro, John McDonald, Brian Tallet and Cory Lidle for basically nothing; picking up Scott Downs on waivers).
And, of course, there’s the revisionist history concerning guys like Chris Carpenter.
The main problem, I think, is that the little things that J.P. did tended to work out very well (though there are still complaints about the Ohka/Zambrano/Thomson thing, which I’ll never understand), and the big moves that J.P. made have tended not to work out at all.
For every early Vernon Wells contract, there was an Eric Hinske contract. For every Aaron Hill contract, there was an Alex Rios contract. For every cheap 30-save-guy-acquired-for-a-malcontent-who-had-been-designated-for-assignment, there was a guy who wound up making $626,667 per save. Rarely was the fact that Ricciardi got Roy Halladay to forgo free agency TWICE ever mentioned.
Those “bad” moves, coupled with the fact that J.P. was occasionally his own worst enemy when a microphone was put in front of him, led to him becoming pretty much Satan incarnate in the eyes of a great many fans.
There was no question that he had to go. It’s just too bad it came to that.
J.P.’s legacy will become more clear over the course of the next decade. Just as his detractors often pointed to Halladay, Dustin McGowan, Wells and Rios as the great players that J.P. inherited (you really don’t hear much about that now, do you?), we will see how Ricciardi draft picks such as Aaron Hill, Adam Lind, Travis Snider, Shaun Marcum, Jesse Litsch, Ricky Romero, Brett Cecil, Marc Rzepczynski et al wind up doing - and that “et al” is going to include some pretty terrific players, too.
When you crunch the numbers, though, the thing that stands out the most is that over eight seasons, Ricciardi built a team that finished higher than third place only once. The Jays’ biggest opportunity to make the playoffs came last season, when they had the best pitching and defense in the major leagues but wasted almost 650 plate appearances on Frank Thomas, Shannon Stewart, Brad Wilkerson and Kevin Mench - the best of whom, believe it or not, was Mench.
This year was supposed to be a step back in order to compete in 2010, mostly because of the injuries to Marcum and McGowan, but somewhere along the way that competitive 2010 got derailed - mostly because of the failings of B.J. Ryan and Alex Rios, the struggles of Vernon Wells, Travis Snider, David Purcey and Casey Janssen, and the injuries to Jesse Litsch and (again) McGowan.
Along the way, though, Adam Lind and Aaron Hill blossomed, the Jays found they had something in Romero - who had been thought of as a complete bust prior to this season, Rzepczynski showed that he’s got a chance to really be something and the Jays picked up a terrific young arm in Zack Stewart for malcontent Scott Rolen. They also rid themselves of Rios’ contract. I’d say they might have found something in Randy Ruiz, too, but evidently he hits too many home runs to get into the line-up on a regular basis.
There is definitely hope for the future, but so many things are still up in the air until we find out who the new President is going to be. Will the new boss keep the newly-retitled Alexander Anthopoulos as his G.M. or bring in his own guy? Will ownership up the payroll to try to compete for a title in 2010, or move more fully into the rebuild process, making the new G.M.’s first job the trade of Roy Halladay? Hopefully all of that will be revealed to us relatively quickly.
At least for now, for the first time in a long time, the majority of Blue Jays fans are really, really happy.
Rational, reasonable comments are always welcome!
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well written piece mike…on Mccowan yesterday, a fan suggested recruiting billy beane for the gm position…that peaked my interest…yes he was JPs mentor, but I was quite satisfied with JPs draft record, but I believed he failed in terms of pro-scouting…I think Billy brings the best of both of those worlds, albeit the athletics have floundered the past few years..what are your thoughts on BB?
MW: I don’t think the fan base would sit too well with Beane after eight years of Ricciardi, but Billy’s got a job.
- jpIt would appear that Paul Beeston agreed with all of us who thought that Rosenthal’s source was JP Ricciardi. He must have been certain of it too, because that was a good old-fashioned ‘You’re fired and Security will help you find your way to the front door’ kind of firing. Ricciardi was on his way out next week anyway, and everyone knew it, so no need whatsoever to make an exhibition of the guy unless he had done something egregious. And he did.
Finally he has been held accountable for a sh*t-storm he stirred up by opening a fat mouth to a US-based journalist. He was brought down by the main flaw in his character. Pure Aristotelian tragedy.
I know you’re sad. You make a great case for why he is a better GM than we believe him to be. But today’s events might suggest that those of us who deplored his constant yakking to the media may have had a point as well…
MW: I wouldn’t say that I’m sad, it’s part of the business. But to say he was brought down by what you perceive to be the main flaw is his character is disingenuous. What may be closer to the truth is to say he was brought down 48 hours early by that.
- isabella reyesHey Mike,
- JayI totally agree with you that it might have been J.P. who might have been the leak.
And, it might have contributed to his firing now rather than later. He usually speaks to U.S. media first rather than to here in Toronto.
Great column, Mike: balanced and well-researched.
MW: Thanks.
- DavidThere is nothing rational or reasonable about Toronto baseball fans so your are asking a lot. However I am concerned about the future of this franchaise, no one wants to address the fact that we were the second worst drawing team in the Majors, Montreal, I mean Washington being the worse. It greives me when i hear sports personalites advocate that fans dont show up to ball park until the team starts winning. I believe that is irresponsible. The media has the forum and power to shape and form public opinion and I believe some in the media are partially responsible for a lot of the venom towards the team. Baseball is not like other major sports and the American league East is like no other division. I understand a fan being irrational and unreasonable we think with our emotions, but people in the media should know better, I thought the media’s job was to first inform and educate us, opinions and the attempt to entertain should be secondary. To borrow a quote, “With great powers come great responsibility”. Please use your “power” educate your peers that there are a lot of positives on this blue jays team and they are worth supporting.
MW: I’m always trying. I think you’re absolutely right that a lot of the venom directed towards the team by the fans is fed by certain members of the media. I think the reason that no one wants to address the fact that the Blue Jays are second-worst in attendance in the majors is because they’re not.
- Victor in MiltonHello, Mr. Wilner,
- Moyashi from Japan“Huh.”
That’s the amount of surprise I was able to muster up when I saw one of the “J.P. Axed” headlines. While I don’t think he dug his own grave on his own, I do think he got some dirt under his fingernails, or rather stuck in his teeth. He tried to do what any other GM would do, but his failures stood out more than his successes, deserved or not. I wish him better luck in the future.
I’m really happy to hear Alex Anthopoulos received the job, he seems to always be willing to talk on the radio, take calls from fans and actually give a darn. Maybe now McCowan will have someone in the Jays front office who he can talk to because he always made jokes about Rogers pointing him to JP!
This is really great though if JP made it into any of the off season I really wouldn’t have listened to anything I heard about the team because my care level would be at an all time low.
With your talks of trading to rebuild the team, what do you think it would take to get Prince and the King to resign long term to stick around and really make deals like you’re suggesting pay off? Do you think they would both do it? It would be nice to see another Fielder in a Jays uni even though Cecil is before my time.
MW: Those are the moves I would make - there’s no reasonable expectation that they’ll actually happen.
- SleepyThey fired the wrong guy. This team had a direction under J.P. , whether they won a lot of games or not. Since Beeston and Cito arrived, it has appeared to absolutely rutterless. Why does Beeston get such a free pass, Mike? I know he’s “interim” but he’s still the President and he has to either do something with this organization or get out of the way already. He need to pass the torch on to someone who will give this team some direction and hopefully to someone that will see that Cito is not a great manager anymore and perhaps never was.
Are you as surprised as I am to see how quickly things took a turn this year? It’s just odd.
MW: You mean rudderless. Beeston gets a free pass because since the day he took the job, he’s been looking for a replacement.
- Scott BI guess the best question to ask to you is: who do you think is going to be the next GM of the Blue Jays? My gut says it is going to be Anthopolous (I think the new president has signed off on this). With regards to Cito, maybe some of the bizarre baseball moves that we all noticed may have been due to the revolt in the clubhouse. Any thoughts?
MW: The bizarre baseball moves have been happening with Cito since 1989, so they’re not due to the clubhouse revolt. The other way around? Definitely. I hope Alex gets a real chance to do the job long-term.
- JohnSent this to Mike Hogan:
Sept 10, 2009. Interested in your comments.
I am an avid Jays fan and sports fan in general. I have attended 15+ Jays games this year and have watched all or part of the others that have been televised.
Very much enjoyed your opening segment on Thursday Morning and feel compelled to write and express my thoughts on J.P. Riccardi.
I’m afraid the band wagon everyone choose to jump on is a nice flash point to a very disappointing season but the fact is J.P. has done his job. I have always been of the mind
that the GM gets the players and the coach coaches them. Well J.P. has done just that but unfortunately Cito and his coaches have done a poor job in getting a sustained effort out of them.
At the start of the year, if my memory serves me well, this was the roster out of camp… Catchers… Barahas and Barrett , 3rd… Rolen, platooned by Bautista and McDonald,
SS… Scutaro, backed up by Mc Donald, 2nd…Hill , 1st… Overbay and Millar, LF… Snider, Lind or Bautista, CF…. Wells, RF…. Rios. With these players who would have argued J.P. was negligent of this duties.
It was touched upon but no one actually blamed Cito or his coaches for the teams performance. Cito is a veterans manager and with the injuries and the influx of a lot of young players I have seen him falter and wondered at time if he just plain gave up. In 92 and 93 all he had to do was fill out his line up card let the boys play. Now in this environment where he has to be proactive and COACH he really seems to have no clue.Watching these guys hit for average with no one on base is wonderful but when the wheels fall off with men in scoring position it is now the coaches RESPONSIBILTY to find a way to get these guys going.
A kick in the pants for some and stroking for others, whatever it takes. It is the coaches job to find that mix. Keeping Rios and Wells so high in the order for so long was a true sign of Citos preference for the vets. Loyalty is great but at all costs will only demoralize a team, not bring them together. When Arsberg and Cito leave a young pitcher in a game to work himself out of a jam, when the guy doesnt have a clue how to do it, is assinine. I saw on more than one occasion where a young guy got 2 outs and then loaded the bases before Arnsberg came out and calmed the guys down. He subsequently struck out the next batter. Was the strike out a coincidence, I think not. Richmond seems to have a history of having difficulty getting 3 innings in without some meltdown. Am I the only one who notices this, I hope not. Cito and his coaches, in my opinion, have done a less than adequate job for us this year and some changes should be made. J.P. may not be the most popular guy now but all our frustrations should be levelled at the players and coaching staff.
I thought your callers had some great points especially the gentleman who stated that the Jays work ethic was lacking and if they just put out a better effort people would come back to the ball park. I agree 100 per cent. If we can get some fire, a greater effort and interest from Cito maybe the players will take heed and respond. Lead by example, wonder if he has heard about that concept… If he has I not seen any evidence of it yet.
I really enjoy your show. At this point, you and the bobcat have the best shows on The Fan. Keep up the good work.
Rob
Whitby
MW: I have to tell you I don’t agree with most of what you say. It’s not a coach’s job to get guys to drive runners in, nor do I think that Brad Arnsberg has the kind of power that you seem to think he does. I have never seen a problem with the Jays’ work ethic or effort. It is interesting, though, that Cito and J.P. shared a ton of credit for the Jays’ quick start this season, but only J.P. seemed to take the blame when the wheels fell off.
- Rob FisherMike, I hope the Blue Jays can get their house in order in time to maybe sign a few key free agents. Here is a what if, IF JP traded Halliday for some amazing package of players is their a chance he would have kept his job???
MW: It’s doubtful.
- Douglas McCallumMost Jays fans are very happy..I guess we are all wrong..But I didn’t see you mention Josh Roenike when you mentioned the Rolen trade..Maybe its his stingy 6.61 and climbing ERA..
Halladay wanted to stay..I’m not sure Riccardi had much to do with that..My bet is if he stayed on as GM he would have had a heck of a time convincing Halladay to stay now..
Yes Hill and Lind look to be good picks and Romero has some potential as well..But even disaster prone Ash found Halladay,Wells and Rios..He even signed 2 time Cy Young winner Rodger Clemons..So even a poor GM will do some decent things over 8 seasons..After all, Riccardi had what 400+ picks to get things right..Even I could have found a few good players with that many chances..
Lets face it..The guy had a big mouth and he would have gotten away with that had he fielded some contending teams..But he didn’t and there fore, should have kept his mouth shut..
Like you said..He was his own worst enemy..Good riddance Riccardi..
MW: I’m not sure why you still comment here - you know I’m going to disagree with just about everything you say.
- ray bI am pleased to see the move has been made, albeit a bit earlier than most people thought.
I do wonder who the permanent choice for General Manager will be. I worry that a disciple of J.P.’s may not be the best choice here. It may be the easiest for the people doing the hiring but maybe a fresh face with some experience elsewhere may be a better bet.
I think that Ricciardi has to go down in history here as being not so much a total failure but a “wrong place, wrong time” type of guy and a minor league model of Billy Beane. His mentor in Oakland has not fared well in recent years either and this makes me think that the success out there was mainly a product of the “advantage” of being one of the few teams using the then-newly devised metrics for analyzing skills of players. Once Epstein and some of the other G.M.’s caught on that advantage was gone.
I suspect that almost every team is using more and more analytical tools for evaluating performance of players. In other words the glow around Billy Beane was more of a short flash of light that faded fast when everyone else figured out what he was up to. Ricciardi didn’t even seem to truly “get” what Beane was doing (or just wasn’t lucky) as the second or third tier players he scooped up often just lived up to what the old school experts thought of them anyway.
I still don’t get though who it was that wanted Eckstein gone - whether it was Gaston with the order of J.P. to play Scutaro more…maybe some of these things will come out when Cito catches the next bus out of town.
Anyway, one down, one to go.
- Rob MI definitely believe blue jays fans are happy with J.P being fired. I think that it was time for a change. People tend to remember the bad things that general managers do and forget the good things. I think the wells contract and the Rios contract were very steep but he was trying to convince the fans and players like Halladay that he was trying to win. I think if he didn’t make those signings the same people that complain about them would have been upset if he didn’t sign them especially if they had great years somewhere else. I would have liked to see him sign Nick Swisher, I believe swisher would have gave them a good power bat and great OBP numbers. He also can play multiple positions.
- LydenThe future does look bright especially with the young arms we have and will look brighter once Halladay is traded because it is obvious we are not going to make the playoffs next year. Perhaps we can trade a few of those young arms to plug some other holes we have on the team. Perhaps going after Drew and Montero in Arizona maybe be feasible, due to the fact that I don’t believe Scutaro will be back long-term if he is indeed brought back.
Always a pleasure listening to jays talk, you do a great job. Hopefully next season will be a better year.
Mike,
I have to say I am a jays fan and I am not happy. I didn’t J.P. the person but I liked J.P. the GM. In the end his mouth ruin his job.
The reason I am not happy is that this move solves little. It like the Jays have been driving for hours with no idea where they were going and final decided to turn around. They still don’t know where they are or where they are going or how they are going to get there.
Another reason I’m not happy is the Cito mess. Can’t live with him, can’t fire him?
Also, the Ruiz problem. He looks like a major league hitter but how do you get him into the line-up. I don’t believe Snider in right, Wells in centre and Lind or Ruiz in left would be an average OF. So how do you get those bats into the line-up?
Thanks for you write on J.P., it was great reading.
MW: If Ruiz is for real, you take the drop-off in defense to get the additional offense. You’re exactly right in that the team remains directionless, though.
- JWJ.P. has been fired? Oh Boo-Hoo, I cant (SOB) believe I didn’t (sniff) get the chance to help him pack his bags.
- Jim in OhioMike,
When I listen to your radio show I am always one of the few who seemed to agree with your positions on JP. I saw the pluses along with the minuses (which always to come to light when the team is losing).
JP made some good moves, certainly made some bad ones. But not many of us admit to how excited we were when some of those big names were signed when Roger’s openned the wallet. We were all thrilled when Halladay, Wells, Hill, Rios were signed for the long term. We were all super excited when we heard Ryan & Thomas were coming in. Although I did have reservations about AJ who I figured arm would fall off until his contract year (I assumed 5th). The point is no GM is a fortune teller, wouldn’t it be great if all signings and trades worked out like Hill and Halladay?
Perhaps JP’s greatest legacy, if we can call it that, is the excellent talent he has drafted over the years. No one is complaining about Hill, Lind, Romero, and Snider and that is just the start of some great pitching talent on its way.
All I’m saying is it is easy to be an arm-chair GM. So many people coming onto your show looking for the Xbox trades on the Henskes and Wells’ over the year(s). We are 20/20 hind-sight hipocrates. If nothing else JP’s effort was there and over some of those 8 season he gave us cause to hope.
PS: You’re serioulsy right about Ruiz.
- DavidMichael,
We still don’t know what direction ownership wants to go in going forward.
If they aren’t going to increase the payroll do you not think that improves Alexander Anthopoulos’s chances of keeping the job going into next year?
I would think if they hired a more experienced guy (Ryan, Gillick, etc…) they’d also raise the payroll in the process to give that GM a chance to be competitive.
MW: The president will likely choose the payroll direction of the team, and it’ll be up to him to decide whether or not to keep Alex. One would think, though, that since Beeston told us last month that his successor would be named “in short order”, that they know who the guy is and he’d probably have signed off on Anthopoulos.
- Uncle BenDing dong, the witch is dead. The team has pretty much imitated Dorothy and the Cowardly Lion reposing in a field of poppies for much of the past three years, so pouring cold water on this guy is long past due.
While I’ll give JP credit for drafting some good young pitching, the sum of his tenure is pretty grim. To whit, I cite the lack of : short stop, third baseman, and catcher of the future; a cleanup hitter with any kind of consistency; and the failure to develop Lind and/or Snyder as legitimate every-day OF/FB position players. (In the interest of balance, I will acknowledge that the latter criticism can be corrected with suitable coaching and commitment by the team).
This GM has been a one-trick pony on a carousel. First, it was a fixation on lumbering 3B/FB/DH types (Mr. Hillecoskhinske), then light hitting utility infielders (why sign MacDonald to a two year deal, then add Scutaro AND Eckstein? Sadly, the glaring answer seems to be that Mr. Ricciardi has to “triple up” on the same guy in the hopes that one of three will actually succeed.)
At the end of the day, he was incapable of building a team for the present, or for the future. Sure, he made some good moves, but even a blind squirrel will inevitably find some tasty nuts.
Good riddance to you and your propensity to make a bad situation worse when given a microphone. You will not be missed, by Toronto, Mr. Ricciardi.
- Mikej.p. has done some good things while he was here, but the single worse thing he did, which will affect this team negatively for the next five years was signing vernon wells. v.w.,s skills are going no where but down. no new g.m. or manager can correct that error.
MW: And if Vernon has a good year next year, you’ll say what?
- shirley cormierJP was not as bad as some people seem to think.He did sign some fine youngsters.He also made some mistakes with big contracts which most of his critics would have also made at the time.On some of his bad moves he was just unlucky.All that said he still had to go.This team needs a remake from the top down,not so much a change in players.Next the other shoe has to drop and Cito must go too.
- PaulI wasn’t surprised by the firing of JP. I was more surprised that he wasn’t fired sooner, especially with the way he handled the Roy Halladay trade specuatation, and with other players as well (The AJ Burnett situation was one that I thought if JP were to shut up, he wouldn’t have gotten himself into this mess, but because he publicly questioned AJ’s injuries, it made me wonder did AJ leave because of JP himself? Although JP did do a few things right such as drafting Adam Lind, Aaron Hill, Ricky Romero and Travis Snider, he also made a lot of signings that were bug busts in the end as well (BJ Ryan was one, and same as Corey Koskie.) I think if anyone should be GM of the Blue Jays, it should be Damon Oppenheimer. He did help the Yankees draft, develop and build some great talent like Joba Chamberlain, and Phil Hughes. I feel that with a GM like Damon (who knows how to develop players, and sign players with a proven track record for about 5 years), the Blue Jays will be able to progress as a team in the future.
What do you think about that Mike?
MW: I think that’s I’d rather have Shaun Marcum, Ricky Romero, Marc Rzepczynski and Brett Cecil than Chamberlain and Hughes.
- Kevin K.Wilner,
You think I’m always negative (mainly because I don’t agree with you), but that’s fine. I’ll say today I’m ‘really, really happy’. Finally the Jays can right the wrong they made 8 years ago. It took too long to make this decision, but better late then never.
Now it’s time to get rid of the malcontents who want to throw the 2-time World Series winner under the bus. If Vernon is unhappy, hopefully he opts out. If Lyle is unhappy then he can join his pal J.P. If Scott Downs didn’t like the way B.J. was treated, he can take a one-way ticket out of here, that is of course he can make it out of the stadium without injuring himself. I’m utterly sick and tired of these millionaire’s crying and whining that their boss isn’t sensitive enough. When these guys accomplish anything (everyone except for Doc), then they have the right to whine and complain, until that time they need to learn to play ball and shut up.
MW: I don’t think you’re always negative because you always disagree with me. Go back and read your past comments.
- BobbyI was a fan of his when he first came to Toronto. I felt like we finally got a GM who would turn around the farm system and build a team to compete in our division. I bought into the money ball idea, if we can’t spend like, then we can draft better than them. I even bought into the five year rebuilding strategy he preached when he first got here. But, his habit for treating players like commodity really irked me. The straw that broke the camels back was his treatment of Corey Koskie. He was the boss and treated his employees peasants. I hope we’re at watershed moment in Jay’s history. I pray we don’t start digging into the past for help. I hope the owners look for a smart, fresh GM and President to help bail this “sinking ship”.
MW: The way he treated Koskie was an issue for you? Why? Koskie signed a big-money deal and didn’t produce - and he was still treated a lot better than most Jays fans would treat Vernon Wells.
- -11-Hi Mike….I am completely comfortable, and relieved with the news about J.P. Ricciardi’s dismissal. Over the past eight years, I tried very hard to appreciate and understand the moves Ricciardi would make with his personnel. I looked to find the wisdom in his moves, and desperately tried to discern his philosophy and overall plan for the ballclub.
However, no matter what I tried to do to understand it all, it always came down to one thing for me. Publicly, he was a complete disaster. He had an uncanny inability to create a culture amongst the fans that we were part of the larger Blue Jay family. He simply appeared far too aloof, arrogant, defensive and dismissive for anyone to believe in him. While he may be someone else entirely away from the media glare, I believe he was as responsible as anyone for the decline in interest in the team, and for the fact that the Jays have fallen off the radar screen for the sports fan of Toronto. The decision to let him go was the right one and it was far too long overdue.
As for Cito Gaston, I have read with interest about his reaction to the ‘mutiny’ in the clubhouse. While I have said and thought much more about this since the news broke yesterday, I have two comments that I wanted to share. First of all, when replying to the question as to whether he would call a meeting with the club to understand the issues more fully, he replied that he would not. Instead, his solution was to say that his door was open and that the players were free to talk to him. As any experienced and skilled people leader will tell you, not wanting to, or choosing not to have a full disclosure discussion with the group you manage, especially given the apparent magnitude of the discontent within the Blue Jay clubhouse, is preposterous. All leaders in any profession face moments in time when they have ‘lost their clubhouse’ for one reason or another. In my opinion, all good leaders face this type of issue with some courage and an openness to explore what may be at the root of it. If the problem in the locker room is truly this bad, and if Gaston is truly as surprised about it as he claims to be, he is completely and utterly out of touch, and should not be leading any group of people, let alone managing a major league baseball team.
My second point is Gaston’s ridiculous insistence about staying with players when they are slumping (Wells, Rios, etc.), or not wanting to pinch-hit or change pitchers at a crucial time because staying with someone now could mean a few wins down the road. In my opinion, you try to win the game you are in for the most part. Besides, substituting for position players and pitchers happens with every other manager in the game, and it can work if you really try it.
When I think of Cito Gaston’s managerial style, I can only think of one word to decribe his behaviour - he is ’somnambulant’ - walking or having the habit of walking while asleep.
Mike….I haven’t always agreed with you, but I read your blog every day it is available. Thank you for the insight, entertainment, arrogance and insight. It’s going to be an interesting off-season.
MW: Arrogance?
- kenone more thing…ive noticed that you have changed your stance on the JP being the source/leak for Kenny Ken (perhaps giving credence to Griffs article)… has someone informed you of this/ is this the reason he was canned today (following the Gaston report)?
MW: Nope, no one has told me anything. I don’t believe I’ve ever changed my stance, though.
- jpwhether it was his time to go or not (from a baseball perspective, not a PR perspective) will always be up for debate, but one thing that no one can feel good about is the way this guy was run out of town. it happens pretty often, in lots of sports markets, but the personal nature of the attacks on this guy made me feel ashamed to be a jays fan…and i really don’t need other fans to make me feel that kind of shame, the organization is doing what they can to make me feel that way, anways.
for what it’s worth (which is absolutely nothing), i’ll look back on ricciardi’s tenure here and rememeber the last 4 or so seasons, rather than the first 4, where he has set the jays up in a beautiful position moving forward.
‘too bad it had to come to that’, indeed. some people really need to take a step back and remember that regardless of how much money these people are making, they’re still human beings that have done NOTHING to deserve your hatred…unless you believe that making questionable personnel decisions regarding your favorite sports franchise is something worth hating a total stranger over.
keep it in perspective, and let’s just hope the next guy can continue to build on the framework that JP has provided.
lastly, seeing that this is one of the last posts of the season, good work on the blog and the show this year, mike, thanks for the effort that goes into ‘this space’, and i look forward to doing it all over again next season.
MW: Thanks, and thanks for your solid perspective.
- Jay BSad to see him go, but do agree they had to make the move.
- Brenthow about paul molitor as the next gm? he always impressed me in his playing days and i always thought he had the smarts to be a manager, or in this case a general manager. as far as a new manager is concerned what do you think of another former major leaguer, ernie whitt! i love that guy…
possible? any thoughts mike?
MW: I don’t think General Manager is an entry-level position as far as the front office is concerned, so I would say no to Molitor. As to Whitt as manager, go back and read the archives from around when John Gibbons lost his job last year. There’s no reason to believe that Ernie would be a good choice, although he does now have a full year of managing in the pros under his belt now.
- ktownmikeyYes, this firing was inevitable. Yes, it’s been a combustible relationship with fans for eight years, the flames fanned at every opportunity by certain dishonest “reporters,” columnists and radio stars. Yes, the best work J.P. has done — and his true character — will (sadly) never be appreciated by the sheep who let the Sun, the Star and McCown influence their opinions. As usual, Mike, I agree completely with the vast majority of what you say. However, the timing of this dismissal was *absolutely* to do with Beeston protecting his obsolete buddy Gaston.
Cito’s pals Tenace and Leyva are also yesterday’s men, if not from several days before that. If Beeston’s “endorsement” in the face of this serious clubhouse mutiny causes the really talented coaches — Butterfield, Arnsberg and Walton — to leave, today was one of the darkest days in franchise history.
Nobody expects you to criticize your own employer, but from my vantage point, Rogers, since Ted passed away, has been *worse* for baseball in Toronto than the Belgian brewery ever was. Alex A. may be a great step toward getting costs in line with revenues, but he’s in way over his head trying to get fair value for Roy Halladay in a trade.
Maybe Alex can keep following in the illustrious footsteps of Gord Ash and hire a brilliant baseball mind like Dave Stewart to advise him; I’m sure Tony LaCava will be moving on.
MW: I doubt Tony will move on, unless he gets a GM job. At least, I hope he stays. Are you serious about Dave Stewart? You’re not serious about Dave Stewart.
- Kent WilliamsMike:
My sympathy goes out to you today as the news came that your best friend got fired today.
I believe as a season ticket holder , this is a good first step to renewing confidence in the ball club.
Even though you applaud most moves that JP has done,I really like all the acquistions that he has made.
According to you he picked up McDonald,Tallet and Scutaro for nothing in 8 years of service on the job.
Bravo!! Bravo!!
Cito is next !
Comments?
MW: Sigh.
- ROBWell thank @#$%^ God!!!! It’s about time!! What a horrible mess this buffoon created. Maybe now the Jays can get a new president, GM and a manager with some testicles for once. This team in this market does NOT have to be a doormat for the Yanks and Bosox!!! Start playing baseball the way it was meant to be played. Run hard go 1st to 3rd, get dirty, block the plate and throw inside!!!! I’m a fan but not of a team full of me’s get the team back to where it belongs!! I hear Towers in SD is free why not go after him?? Good bye JP and Good riddence!!!!
MW: Sure, why not bring in a guy who just got fired because his team is having a worse year than the Blue Jays’? You really think the things you mentioned are the difference between the Blue Jays being a contender and not?
- Blair MartinHey Mike,
Can you give me your theory on why Mr. Anthopoulus was chosen over Mr. Lecava?
MW: I don’t really have one. I think they’re both terrific.
- Ryan S.Mike:
You, Jerry and Alan will be discussing the news of the day before todays game but Saturday dinner-time is a tough time to get to the radio. Can you put the pre-game show on the website, like you do with Jays talk, so the Fans can hear what the three of you think about the days news?
Thanks Mike
MW: I’ll see what I can do.
- GerYou say,”There is definitely hope for the future…” What hope? This year the Jays have had exactly two players that could be everyday players on any contending team in the majors…next year Hill will be the only one left. No major league starters;no closer;nobody to play short, first,or catch that would be considered at first line player on a contending team. Vernon Wells may not have such a slow start next year…maybe he will get going in August instead of September, but nobody to play left or right. If Cito’s back we will have another year of passive baseball: no hit and run; no steals; no bunting.
But I guess there is HOPE! YEA RIGHT!!
MW: Sigh.
- RWCWhile most of the fan base will be celebrating JP’s dismissal, I think it’s fair to point out some of the brilliant moves he made during his tenure (in no particular order):
• Trading Adam Peterson for Shea Hillebrand and then…
• Trading Shea HIlleband and Vinnie Chulk for Jeremy Acardo
• Trading Bobby Kielty for Ted Lily
• Getting Scott Downs, Pete Walker, Dirk Hayhurst and Gregg Zaun off waivers
• Getting Marco Scutaro for for next to nothing
• Getting Cory Lidle for next to nothing
• Trading Mark Hendrickson for Justin Speier
• Trading Jason Werth (at the time) for Jason frasor (Let’s not forget that LA dumped Werth, too)
• Trading Batista + Hudson for Glaus + Santos
• Signing AJ Burnett
• Trading Bubbie Buzachero for Brian Tallet
• Trading Cory Koskie for Brian Wolfe
• Getting Rolen for Glaus
• Getting Encarnacio, Roenicke, and Stewart for Rolen
• Getting Jose Bautista for Robinson Diaz
• Getting Chicago to take Alex Rios and his contract
And while he did make some dumb moves (who hasn’t?), there were a number of players who had the talent to be better but never really put it all together or who have yet to put i all together. They include:
• Russ Adams
• Jason Arnold
• John-Ford Griffin
• Guillermo Quiroz
• Luke Prokopec
• Josh Banks
• Brandon League
• Curtis Thigpen
• Matt Clement
• Dustim McGowan
Good luck, JP. Thanks for making Toronto your (summer) home for 8 years.
MW: I don’t know if I would have put the Koskie for Wolfe trade in there. Not that I don’t like Wolfe, but the Jays wound up paying a huge portion of Koskie’s contract in that deal.
- ronThis is unfortunate, J.P. didn’t really deserve this. It simply came down to payroll (Don’t even start with Tampa Bay), I don’t think the Jays can compete with the payroll they have now, J.P.’s unpopular moves mostly centered around payroll, either taking a risk to try to find something good, or moving somebody to try to save payroll, he did the best with the cards he was dealt.
That being said, it was time for J.P. to go, to be burned at as a sacrifice to the gods of fan fickleness.
Good luck in the future J.P., I certainly appreciated him.
Now it’s time for Cito to go, that move is long overdue
- Kevin DalyOh happy day!
I have never been able to figure out your love for JP. Even in your brief recap of his history here, you point out a number of his missteps.
No, not EVERY move JP made was bad, but he made enough bad ones, and made enough bone-head comments, and when you add it up, he never produced a team that even competed into August, let alone September.
One of the reasons why he’s so hated in Toronto is because he was at the helm when the team finally saw an influx of money. When Rogers announced that it was upping the payroll, naturally our hopes and expectations rose with it. But for the extra millions, we didn’t see any more wins.
Rightly or wrongly, a GM will always be judged by the Wins and Losses. The way he talked down to toronto was just insult to injury.
So good riddance.
Mike, I sorry to call you out here, but I have one more comment.
If several players made it clear to you that the team had turned on Cito, why did Rosenthal break the story?
Just because they approached you anonymously doesn’t mean you couldn’t have said “several players have told me…”. Rosenthal didnt have player names either. Why would you get scooped here?
MW: Because, as I mentioned, I wasn’t going to go with a story like that if no one was willing to put their name on it. Rosenthal did, and that’s his prerogative, but that’s not the way I choose to operate. To say that there were no more wins once the money came isn’t true. After the payroll bump, the Jays had three straight winning seasons after being under .500 in three of the previous four.
- tj archHello Mike,
In regard to the club house mutiny, your statement pretty much summarizes what JP was a man:
“…Rosenthal has gotten a lot of Blue Jays scoops over the past few years and it’s not unreasonable to believe that J.P. himself may well have been the leak.”
Is it too outlandish to suppose that he also had a hand instigating that mutiny?
MW: Yes.
- kenMike….It’s amazing what winning does. From all accounts, Earl Weaver wasn’t the warm, fuzzy, fatherly type (please see Jim Palmer) but the 70’s Orioles’ clubhouse seemed okay. Ex-Hab Steve Shutt said the team despised Scotty Bowman 364 days of the year and on the 365th, they cashed their Stanley Cup cheques. And the 1994 N.Y Rangers love Mike Keenan, but I bet the 2009 Calgary Flames lined up to pay for his airfare out of town. If a few more Jays NOT named Halladay, Scutaro, Lind, Hill had shown up, Cito’s probably not too bad a guy.
- chris m.You’re right, very happy. Good rundown Mike. At the end of the day it’s not too bad it came to this. It’s long overdue. We need an aggressive strategy and a new approach. It must start with the owner. If this franchise reverts to the strategy they told Ricciardi to pursue when he arrived then forget it. New faces on deck won’t hide a rotting hull in that event.
- JCHi Mike
I agree JP made a lot of excellent moves and also made some bad moves, and always managed to find new ways to stick his foot in his mouth. The “it’s not a lie if I know the truth” was a particular favourite of mine.
But I really do think it was time for a change. JP has tried several different strategies (I don’t mean the “five year plan” per say, but there were different plans), several different managers, different payrolls etc, etc. New blood time.
So, hopefully this “mutiny” is resolved. Communication in general seems to be a major problem right now, so the players meeting will hopefully get some things accomplished. It all seems really ridiculous. Why do you think the players feel they can’t go to Cito with their issues?
MW: I really don’t know. But when you are having issues with your boss, and your boss is a national icon, is can be kind of tough to confront him about it.
- JoannaBeeston did the right thing today in firing Ricciardi. It’s my opinion that J.P. had more than a little to do with the latest news of trouble in the clubhouse between Cito and the players being reported by Rosenthal. Like many things this season, Ricciardi mishandled a number of things from his failed attempt to trade Doc to now the embarrassment of the manager. We need someone who is willing to represent the Blue Jays, the city of Toronto, Blue Jay fans with a little more dignity and respect. We need a general manager who isn’t ashamed to move his family to the GREAT city of Toronto and become part of the community…give back a little to those who seemingly mattered very little to the likes of J.P. Ricciardi and current they shall remain anonymous Blue Jay’s players and coaches. What a bloody disgrace to the city and the fans!!!
MW: Because where someone lives has so much to do with the job he does. Did you have a problem with Pat Quinn living in Vancouver while he was the GM of the Leafs? Pat Gillick living in Toronto while he was the GM of the Mariners, or living in Seattle while he was the GM of the Phillies?
- DarrylJ.P. is not the victim to a fan initiated purge. He wasn’t successful or only moderately so. Simply that. And for fans to feel somehow ashamed of celebrating this guy being fired is ridiculous. J.P. has repeatedly said to you in interviews and therefore to the fan base, “don’t worry about me losing my job, I won’t have any trouble finding a job in baseball thereafter.” And in a recent interview with you, when responding to the question if he would like to stay on in Toronto after his contract is up, he basically said that he wasn’t sure about that, since he didn’t like losing, and staying in the AL East meant losing–that is, he absolved himself of any responsibility in the matter. I’m not sorry to say, I’m glad he’s gone, and look forward to a brighter Blue Jay future without him, and without a manager who would rather play with his grandchildren after next year than manage the team. I respect Cito’s wishes here, but if that’s where your head’s at, then quit now.
MW: Ricciardi never said that.
- Will, OshawaWhat is your opinion of Alex Anthopoulos? Can he do the job? Is he some sort of wunderkind? Will he be viewed as one of “JPs boys” (fairly or not)? I’ve read nothing but good things about him so far.
MW: I have nothing but good things to say about Alex. I think he’s terrific and I hope he’ll do a great job.
- DeanIf there’s blame for the state of the Jays, there’s plenty to go around, from the owners on down.
The Jays are not the Leafs. While there is hard care support for the Jays there are many, many fence-sitters in my view. They have to win to succeed and that requires money.
Rogers has to decide are they in or out, and the rest follows from there. Invest or sell, may be over-simplification but it is a key decision.
I think there are some good proven and potential assets but an “A” list CEO and GM are a necessary starting point to rebuild organizational credibility and reputation further tainted by the events of the last couple of days.
I enjoy listening to you, Mike.
- Peter DeschampsThis had to happen as you say. I’m undecided on an inexperienced GM. As you mentioned, it hasn’t hurt other teams, and he seems to have a similar pedigree to the other wunderkinds (Epstein, Daniels, Friedman) McMaster is kind of the Canadian version of an Ivy League school is it not? I like having Canadians work for the Jays but in this case I hope it doesn’t figure in the decision. Just hire the best guy. If it is Alex, prying Gillick away from Philly to act as Sr. Advisor would be a fantastic move, as long as his sentimentality about Cito doesn’t blind him to the facts as it seems to have with Beeston.
What do you think the chances are of Cito being gone?
MW: Not as high as I thought they were yesterday. McMaster is the Canadian equivalent of an Ivy League school? I didn’t know that.
- Sean in LethbridgeHey Mike. The fact that they didn’t wait to fire JP on Monday which I did guarantee, proves to me they found the leak and wanted to once and for all rid themselves of this public relations embarassment of a gm unceremoniously. You jumped all over the Cito story too quickly, I hope for your sake that most players wanted Cito out. It would be a shame if you got caught in the web of Ricciardi’s one last public debacle. Cito doesn’t need Beeston to protect him from the media, he has broad shoulders and need not answer to anyone. The fact they dumped JP today speaks volumes. A new day has started for the Blue Jays, now they need to find a gm who hasn’t resigned himself to finishing fourth in the division. One last point, Cito seemed to me to do a pretty good job nurturing Olerud and Green when they came into the league. Lind and Snider should be listening to Cito as much as possible. And as far as Cito’s use of his bench, what did he really have all year. After watching Ruiz last night, maybe Cito has put him in the line up when he has had the best possible chance to succeed, only playing him against pitchers with certain repetoires.
MW: You have taken a few massive leaps of logic there. For Ricciardi’s firing to “prove” that the Jays “found” the source of the leak is a massive stretch. I didn’t get caught in any sort of JP-inspired debacle, unless JP was actually putting words in the mouths of the dozen-plus players that I spoke to last week.
- daveMike, there is almost no doubt that time timing of this moce ws accelerated to overshadow the stories of didcontent in the Jays clubhouse. In your last blog, you talk to just how bad the situation is.
As one who listend to Jays Talk after 90% of games, your saying how bad the clubhouse is in your blog came as a big surprise to me. During the entire season you have never made talked to this point, or brought it out in any way. It seems like your acknowledgement of the truth of the story is just a reaction to someone else’s scooping of the story.
Please don’t misunderstand, I am a big fan of your work and will be a loyal listener for years to come, it just strikes me a little strange that the first real comments you make on this story all season are an acknowldegement of someone else’s story.
Did you not know the seriousness of the situation, or did you purposefully choose to not discuss just how bad things seem to be in Jays land?
MW: If you’ve read and listened to me, then you know the answer to that.
- DeclanMike, you may believe that J.P. was very good but the truth is his record was very close to Ash’s. They were both mediocre GM’s. They both had their opportunity and failed. Now if the Jays get rid of Gaston, they may have a future. This a case of addition by subtraction.
MW: Your first sentence reads as though you believe that the first part and the second part actually have something to do with each other.
- BrianI find it funny how you can be critical of Cito yet defend JP and never critic his job. JP is lucky he lasted the last few years, his player signings and comments should of led to his dismisal last year. It was time for the Jays to make a fresh start, bring in some one with new ideas how to tackle the AL east rather then admit defeat because your foes are to strong.
MW: I’m critical of the things that Cito does that I think are wrong and I’m critical of the things that J.P. does that I think are wrong.
- jason c wIt’s like watching “As the world Turns” with the Jays lately.
Just a thought, but what is the harm in performing a search for a new GM while giving Alex the interm tag rather than just giving him the job outright with no search or interviews.
MW: There’s no harm in that, but I think Alex is a really bright, experienced guy who (along with Tony LaCava) knows the organization better than anyone else.
- ClintAlex A.’s first interview as the G.M. adds even more intrigue. He seemed to have the same script as Ricciardi yesterday. And then Beeston makes it sound like Cito is here for next year. I am betting though that Beeston knows that he himself will be leaving soon and that Alex A. knows that he is only temporary too. Why else would he essentially spew the same line that Ricciardi did yesterday?
And Jerry’s interview with Cito was a real humdinger too. It seems to me that when it comes to dealing with the media and criticism about himself, Cito took a little training from O.J. Simpson along the way. The allegations AREN’T true and the players have been coming in and saying they weren’t one of the ones involved in the “mutiny”. I don’t think he believes that anyone wouldn’t like him. The coaches will be back too, according to Cito despite reports of a division in there ranks. Ashby has stated that he personally has noticed that the coaches sometimes aren’t on the same page around the team.
And the argument that this type of thing happens on all teams is a bit far-fetched to me. There may be dissension on some teams that gets resolved before the media lets it out but I’ll bet that it isn’t every day that the majority of the team wants the manager gone and then everyone kisses and makes up.
I think his actions and inactions over the year are more than enough reason to replace him. The events of the last 48 hours just underscore the need for a change. Beeston’s loyalty may be admirable but the way the team has finished with such disappointing attendance there is no excuse to leave another cloud hanging over the team for a whole offseason. No more fooling around. Gaston must go.
And jeez, Ashby sounds like he’s trying to be another Steve Stone. Credit to Alan for the stance he seems to have taken from his experience as a player - wondering aloud if it is even possible to mend all the fences between Gaston and his players.
- Rob MMike,
I have never been a J.P. fan but it is never a happy event when a person loses their job, especially when they enjoy it and are as passionate about it as J.P. I don’t think all of the problems lay at Riccardi’s feet. When he was hired Rogers seemed to want the best of both worlds. A championship team at a bargain basement price and even though J.P. promised them it could be done, it wasn’t going to happen in the American League East. What turned me off at the start was the way Riccardi felt that anything and anybody connected with Gillick and Ash had to go. That was as big a mistake as it would be for his successor to purge the organization of all the Riccardi players and innovations.
It always seemed that he tolerated the Toronto fans feelings about baseball rather than respecting them. Maybe it was just the tone of his voice. We may not be as devout as Red Sox Nation but we aren’t total fools either. I seem to remember comments when he was first hired about giving Toronto its first really great championship team (I thought what was wrong with 92 & 93?)and that new blood was needed in the dugout and the stands (So because I had been coming since 1977 I wasn’t welcome?). Things could have probably been phrased a little more diplomatically but I still recognized the passion.
This move is not going to fix all that ails the Blue Jays. I have to believe Beeston when he says he doesn’t want to stay long-term. In that case his bosses have to get serious about a permanent replacement. The new prez has to decide whether Anthropolous is the right person to lead or to bring in his own man. And both of them have to convince Cito to move into the proposed ambassador / consultant role. I don’t know whether he deserves to be relieved of his manager’s duties, but the damage of the last 24 hours seems to dictate it as much as the season’s record dictated that Riccardi had to go. It is a very sad end to what seemed to be a promising season.
MW: If you don’t know whether Cito deserves to be relieved of his manager’s duties, then you haven’t been watching closely. I don’t remember J.P. saying anything about a “first really great championship team” - I think your memory may be failing you there. And what’s wrong with asking for new blood in the stands when attendance had gone down by half in seven years? Also, I don’t recall Ricciardi purging the organization of anyone related to the Gillick/Ash eras. No one was moved simply for the sake of being moved.
- Rodger MartinMichael,
Has there ever been any mention of Sandy Alderson for the president’s job?
I’m not sure if he has been approached before by the Jays, but he certainly has a wealth of experience and success.
MW: He has been mentioned in some rumours.
- Uncle BenI, for one, am not really, really happy. I hope this doesn’t mean that Cito gets a free pass. He needs to go!!
- AlMike, very good summary of all the rarely mentioned JP moves and draft picks that were part of some very good Jays teams from 2006 on and will be going forward.
The Lidle trade gets ignored because he sucked, but he was coming off two seasons of 121 and 111 ERA+ pitching. Hinske was ROY. The Lilly trade was a gem. So was the Scutaro trade. And those are just fleecings of Billy Beane alone! I’ll also add Catalanotto, Zaun, Stairs, Carlson, Camp, and Richmond as solid pickups.
Another thing that’s forgotten is that the Jays were ranked 3rd, 8th, 5th, and 11th in the majors based on run differential since 2006. That’s significant. Yes the playoffs are the only thing that matters, but critics have to consider the context of playing in the AL East as well.
JP has been awful with taking risks, that’s for sure, leading to players like Mench, Eckstein, Wilkerson, Delucci, Millar, Clayton, holding Lind back, not drafting high-schoolers, etc., but he’s risk-averse by nature and at least that hasn’t resulted in a Wells for Sirotka/Loaiza for Young/Olerud for Person type of trade. If Rogers wasn’t so cheap and they actually signed this year’s draft picks, this farm system would be even better.
Many of the failed signings (Rios, Wells, Ryan, Thomas, Koskie) wouldn’t be such a big deal if the payroll kept rising as it was implied it would after 2005. Other teams make awful signings too but they get to write off their mistakes and keep spending. The widespread criticism of these signings is mainly a result of the fact that they had to buy them out, which doesn’t look very good to the public and makes it ripe of further ridicule.
I firmly believe JP has built playoff caliber teams since 2006 and would have made the playoffs at least 3 times in that span, even with the injuries. The new GM will be hard-pressed to do any better with the same circumstances. I hope I’m wrong.
MW: Would have made the playoffs at least three times in another division, I’m assuming you mean.
- SPMike, you’re gonna be famous. One fan wag has put you on youtube interviewing JP, and it’s gold.
Here’s the link.
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch?e=20091003201127344
MW: I wouldn’t call that gold, that could have been lot funnier. - when did I become British?
- Ricky Romeroit is not a pound of flesh that someone should be let go for doing an overall ineffective job. i am sorry anyone loses a job because of the affect on one’s self esteem. however to be fair to say J.R. did a good job because he found lind and hill to me is analagous to an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of type-writers and producing all the great literary masterpieces. bottom line the team, organization and fanbase is worse for his presence as our GM. So i hope he finds a great job , just not with our sport’s teams, they already have enough problems
MW: Your first sentence is right, but Ricciardi didn’t do an overall ineffective job. And to see only Hill and Lind as positives is to be either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.
- john ruthMW: I wouldn’t say that I’m sad, it’s part of the business. But to say he was brought down by what you perceive to be the main flaw is his character is disingenuous. What may be closer to the truth is to say he was brought down 48 hours early by that.
True. I should have expressed that better. However I do believe that his fate as GM of the Jays was sealed by his actions during the Trade Halladay debacle. And if you recall, he did spend entirely too much time yakking to the US media during that time.
But, yes, he hit the bricks 48 hours early because he talked too much.
- isabella reyesMike,
Apparently at the mini press conference in Baltimore today Tony Viner basically stated that there is, at present, no strategic plan in place for the Jays. Huh!?!
Apparently Alex Anthopoulos will develop the strategic plan and have it submitted to Rogers for approval within the next month or so.
How can they have no plan at present, Mike? Wouldn’t they have at least some form of existing organizational plan left over from JP’s era?
The obvious lack of leadership here is troubling to say the least. What is wrong with this ownership, Mike? Don’t they even care?
MW: There hasn’t been a plan because there hasn’t been someone in place to put one together. Until there’s a full-time President, there’s no direction.
- McLovinHey Mike
As a hardcore critic of JP, i still feel bad for the guy, its not easy to get canned. Even so, i believe it was the only way for the franchise to move forward. Based on his inability to get the Jays into contention, the only possible reason to retain JP would be if you believe he has improved as a GM over the last decade, which i see no evidence of.
You can point out a few names that JP has selected in the draft, but every team can do the exact same thing. Anyone who follows minor league talent will tell you that the Jays have one of the worst farm systems in baseball. Baseball America is an authority on minor league talent, and they will have the Jays in the bottom 5 in overall talent in this years ratings.
A quick look at the last few drafts show no signs of improvement. JP couldn’t even sign 3 of his top 4 selections in this years draft, even though in some cases, the discrepancy was a mere 300K. In 2008, JPs first few selections (Cooper and Wilson) are batting .258 and 212. In 2007, he had 4 picks in the first few rounds and selected Ahrens, Arencibia, Tolisano and Eiland who are batting 215, 236, 232 and 196 respectively.
He botched the Roy Halliday deal. Docs value will never be as high as it was at the deadline, yet he can’t find a buyer? I love Doc, but as you point out, it is quite likely he will start to decline sooner than later. Its time to move him.
JP missed the mark far too often when he was given cash to spend in the free agent market, which was the biggest issue.
MW: Your last statement is true, but a lot of the other stuff isn’t. To say J.P. was unable to get the Blue Jays into contention is to grant him a whole heck of a lot more power than he had. I also don’t think that there’s much question that he improved in the job the longer he was in it. The 2006-2008 Blue Jays were three pretty terrific teams in some pretty brutal circumstances.
- RickI think it would have been hilarious if the the press release read: THE GENERAL MANAGER HAS BEEN RELIEVED OF HIS DUTIES.
Calling Ricciardi “General Manager”, the way he likes to call players, “the player”.
- RomeMike are you crazy?? Towers has done more in SD than Riccardi has EVER done in Toronto!!! The Jays are soft, Cito dosen’t get in the face of players like Wells and Bautista and Overbay….Johhny Mac sat for 3 months before he got a start…are you kidding me??? Yes Scutaro had a great year but everyone needs a day off now and again. Riccardi has done more harm than good and should have been fired 2 years ago!! I know you are close to the Jays so you won’t say anything bad about them…but the PAYING PUBLIC (ie me) is sick of this friggin mess!!!!
MW: This is a little all over the place, but are you blaming Ricciardi for John McDonald sitting for half the season?
- Blair MartinHi M.W.
My Beef with J.P Era, is’t really about player personal descions, at the time of Vernon Wells Signing Everyone including myself acknowledged that it was a lot of money but he looked like perenial 30 Hr 100 RBI Gold Glover entering his prime and the face of the franchise.(see the contract given to Gary Matthws JR that same season)
I could make a list of deals and descions that worked out and ones that didn’t, but anyone can play woulda, shoulda coulda, it is especially hard not knowing what other factors were at play.
The Problem i have is the zig zaging direction that the franchise has taken since the ‘Gord Ash Era” i would argue that J.P has pretty well brought us back full circle with a few good pieces in place but we are no closer to a winning franchise today then 2001.
Biggest Disapointment:
Buck Martinez getting fired without getting a real chance.
Worst Move:
not tendering Chris Carpenter
Best Move: Ted Lilly deal
On another note,
I LOVE Cito, no one was happier then me when he came back last year, but he is the WORST in game Manager i have ever seen, having said that the Players Should S### The F*** Up and do as their told.
MW: Why did you feel you had to censor the word “shut”? More importantly, what do you feel J.P.’s worst move was, without the benefit of hindsight?
- MattTo paraphrase a great Irish lyricist:
Its a beautiful day!!!!!!!!!!!!
JP has gone away…
Its a beautiful day!!!!!!!!!!
PS…… if you have been a GM for 8 years and amongst the accomplishments listed in your professional obituary is the acquisition of a starting pitcher with a 5.75 era and losing record with Jays, you were incredibly lucky to last 8 years.
MW: Your P.S. is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen.
- ProkopecMike…
For many of us…Alex Anthopoulous is a complete unknwown besides the face that he is 32 and Canadian. I know he got his start in Montreal and moved to Toronto…so many people might say that maybe the only reason he has moved up the ranks is because he is Canadian. Now I don’t want to say that at all. But I imagine that many will say that just like they have said that about Jay Triano his entire tenure with the Raptors.
So Mike, I ask you what can you tell us about this unknown Canadian. Has he ever talked to you about what kind of players he would look for Besides the fact that we don’t know what the payroll is going to be, do you have an idea what kind of style team we might have?
Lastly, do you think hiring him immediately was the right move, especially right after the Padres fired a pretty good GM in Kevin Towers. Do you think he is ready for this?
MW: I think the only way to know whether or not he’s ready is to give him the shot. Here’s thing about your theory - most of the people who work behind the scenes for the Blue Jays are Canadian - he rose to the top because he’s smart, he knows the game, he loves the game and he works his tail off.
- DanMike, can you expound on why you think JP was the leak? Why not a player or one Gibbons’ coaches?
And what changed in the front office that Anthopoulos suddenly became the favoured guy over the more experienced LaCava? Is it because Beeston came in and he prefers the Canadian?
From all the quotes, it sounds like there’s nothing really interim about Anthopoulos at all. The next President must have signed off on him as GM if they’re ready to announce the man within a couple weeks. If that’s the case, I see more of the same. Anthopoulos was involved in the negotiations for all those signings that Ricciardi is ridiculed for, including LaCava, who they risk losing anyway because he’s probably mad about getting the shaft.
This organization needs an enema.
MW: You’re jumping to quite a few conclusions there. I don’t know that Alex suddenly became the favoured guy - he may always have been.
- Shawn“MW: There hasn’t been a plan because there hasn’t been someone in place to put one together. Until there’s a full-time President, there’s no direction.”
So there is no direction…but we now have a new inexperienced GM, not an interim GM; it looks like Cito is staying; what the hell is going on…God Beeston has really screwed this all up, even if he decides he should be the new President.
And Toronto’s baseball fans (and I am one - from the beginning and a baseball fan for a lot longer than that) will have to put up with another inexperienced GM learning on the job, and with another rebuilding job by someone who has never been successful as a GM. The direction I see is last place next year…replacing the Leafs as Toronto’s biggest joke.
MW: Would you have said the same things had Theo Epstein been named the GM?
- RWCHi Mike,
A couple of comments:
i) I have never understood why gm’s/managers etc. get fired in the last week of the season? What’s the point in that? Why don’t they do it when the season is over?
ii) I just can’t see Cito staying on after this “rebellion” has gone public. Despite what Beeston says, it sounds like a situation that can’t be fixed
iii) how hard is it for you (and other sports people etc.) to talk/see/interact wit the team and see what’s happening and not be able to communicate it?
iv) I remember that JP didn’t seem so keen on having Cito come in as manager…at least that was some of the innuendo. Maybe he saw something that many others didn’t.
These are interesting times….I really hope positives come out of all of this.
MW: i - I thought I answered that in the post. ii - I wonder about that - it seems as though the players’ tune changed in a big hurry after they met with Beeston yesterday. iii - Extremely. iv - Many others had forgotten about 1994-97.
- OzRobMichael,
Do you know why Alex was chosen instead of Tony La Cava? I believe Tony has been with the team longer.
Do you think this could lead to Tony leaving the Jays?
MW: I don’t, and I hope not.
- Uncle BenMoving along from today’s events, it now sounds as though Cito Gaston will be the manager next year unless he himself decides to resign. And the players are back-pedalling like crazy. I’m getting visions of a grassy knoll somewhere in the Camden Yards outfield. Some pressure was applied somewhere, and there was talk today of some coaches not returning. I wonder if that refers to Butterfield and Arnsberg who are apparently on the outs with Cito’s guys and have been for a while. I don’t think JP Ricciardi fanned the flames of this ‘mutiny’ but I do think that a coach or two may have had a hand in it. Whatever has gone on, it’s clearly been stamped on hard by what’s left of the front office.
Oh, and by the way, how refreshing to hear Alex Anthopoulos answer questions on SportsNet after tonight’s game. He had absolutely nothing substantive to say. No info on payroll, player changes, Halladay. Nothing but anodyne general comments and sidesteps. Lovely! That’s exactly what I want. A guy who knows how to keep his mouth shut. Let him go about his business and do his thing. If there are changes in Jayland–and I say this absolutely sincerely–I want to read about them after they happen. Not before or during.
And one more thing: no one is putting a name to this, but at least one scout is out there commenting that Alex Rios does not have any real love for baseball and isn’t interested in playing the game. I thought that was pretty ironic. And true…
MW: That’s not news about Rios.
- isabella reyesIf you’re gonna make such a bold statement like Ricciardi leaked the mutiny to Rosenthal, you must have some information right? I know you wouldn’t say something like that on pure speculation.
MW: I didn’t make such a bold statement. I said that it’s not unreasonable to believe that Ricciardi leaked it.
- TomHey Mike,
People have bashed JP a lot for signing Wells and Rios to long term contracts, however, I thought at the time of signing, they were really fair. Although these players never performed as well as expected, I don’t think JP could have foreseen this?
David
MW: I don’t think anyone could have.
- DaveHey Mike
post #61
What statements did i make that you believe to be untrue? The stats i quoted of the players JP selected are accurate, and the club currently doesn’t have 1 single propect in the minors that would be considered a blue chip prospect. JPs draft record is horrible, and the fans that write in saying he has done a good job at the draft table are probably the same group who thinks Cito is a good manager.
JP was am average GM at best, and average isn’t going to cut it in the AL East. He sealed his own fate by nearly a decade of non contention.
One other question….when you state that no other team in the majors has produced as many big leaguers as the Jays, are you referring to the JP Ricciardi era?
MW: I’m referring to the present state of affairs in the major leagues. You did quote accurate stats, but there’s a lot more to those guys than their batting averages. I’ve gotten into it a bunch of times already - these are guys who are playing at least a level higher than they should be, and should be expected to struggle. Baseball America is a fine source, it’s true, but like every other prospect-touting publication, it’s wrong more often than it’s right, which is why I always say check back with me in five years to see how good a minor-league organization is right now. To say that J.P. hasn’t improved as a GM, hasn’t improved at the draft table and botched the Halladay trade is just not true.
- RickHey Mike
I am fully in the minority…JP has been a lame duck all season and saw that quite early on…didnt’ always like what he said but will allow time to dictate his effectiveness as a GM…I really believe in 2010 as the year and don’t know why fans have and some media have wanted his head on a platter…and really don’t believe its the right thing to do…how many GM’s have drafted so many starting pitchers, or built there bullpens the way he has…if a real fan would look at the drafting record of any gm in the past 20 years I would suggest that he is in elite company in terms of drafting….I just feel that firing a gm based on popular sentiment is never the right idea and hope it won’t effect the long term plan of the jays…
MW: I don’t think 2010 is going to be the year.
- Rock FreemanYou said something the other day in Jays talk that i really disagree with.
s caller was basically saying that JP should have been fired for some of his moves that turned out to be not so good (frank thomas, wells contract, bj ryan) and you countered stating that those moves were looked at as good at the time and that its not the gms job to predict the future.
well, if all being a gm involves is looking at a guys stats, how a player did last year or the last couple years, and then signing the available ones that performed well, then being a gm is the easiest job on earth.
no, the job of a gm is to be able to project THE FUTURE based on past performance, skill set, body type, age, mental make up..injury risk..etc etc etc.
it sounds like you are saying that noone though bj ryan was an injury risk before he was signed by the jays. this is far from the truth. many scouts had commented at the tim the signing was risky due to bjs delivery and the huge risk of financially committing that much money/years to a closer.
koskie was an aging huge injury risk..and of course he got injured with the jays.
thomas was old..really old…and signing him was essentially paying him for the previous year. he did fine the first year..but what a disaster after that..
my point isnt to point out poor moves by jp. my point is that it IS the job of the GM to predict the future. if its just looking at numbers and picking the guys with the best ones, any moron could do it.
MW: I disagree. No one can accurately predict the future. No one knows whether a guy is going to get hurt (scouts did say that B.J. Ryan was Tommy John waiting to happen, but they also said that Mark Prior and A.J. Burnett had perfect mechanics and would never get hurt). All you can do is work from the information you have.
- General ZodHey Mike,
The most unsettling thing about all this is that nobody (Beeston, Anthopolous etc.) seems certain of the FUTURE direction . . . because we can debate the missteps of the past 8 years all we want, but everyone knew this was coming.
(Just classless, in my opinion, if J.P. tried to drag down Cito with him by planting something with Ken Rosenthal if indeed that’s what happened).
But even with your “Pound of Flesh” angle and slanting this like it was demanded by fans to turn around the fan apathy . . . there is no joy in Jaysville, because nobody knows what is going to happen regarding the future direction.
The firing of J.P. alone doesn’t make the “splash” necessary to turn things around . . . as it is, we have a GM fired and an inexperienced incoming GM saying “I don’t know what’s going to happen” so Jays fans, even the J.P.-haters, are hardly dancing in the streets.
The “splash” will come with Rogers outlining a new direction with a full-time president, payroll commitment, free-agent signing etc.
MW: Yes, it will.
- Ken PaganIf Ricciardi’s residency was not at all an issue, then why did Beeston address that with Ricciardi this season? Personally, I could care less where anyone lives - that’s their personal business - but clearly the Jays as an organization were having questions about Ricciardi’s home address, or at least the temporary team president was. Was St. Paul being genuine, or was he as I so often suspect of him just putting on an act? In a city overrun with phonies, nobody tops Beeston.
MW: I don’t remember Beeston addressing J.P.’s place of residence. Refresh me.
- mike aJP probably knew that he would be replaced by Alex Anthopoli, Yet the other day he comes asns makes A typical JP state by saying he doesn’t care who the GM is they won’t be able to do a better job in the division or something to that effect. How ignorant or egotistic is that staement. How much encouragement does that give Alex nowing that he was probably salivating over the possibility of being the next blue jay GM. Pretty discouraging. But then again that’s pretty JP like. GOOD RIDDANCE.
MW: Sigh.
- Thomasre: comment 12..
Hey you post them..You may disagree with everything I say but I’m right far more often then I’m not..I predicted the Jays would win 75 games this year and with one more game left, I may be bang on..
I didn’t think Richmond would have a good year and he didn’t..I also disagreed with most of your points about Gaston and we found out today he will be around to bother you for one more season..
I was right about Snider as well..I figure he was a Riccardi poster boy for his glorious farm system and judging by his struggles this season, he just isn’t quite ready for the show..He is a good player but not ready..
So you think the Jays farm system is ok??..Where are all the young kids that most teams call up in September?.
MW: Most teams don’t call up a ton of kids in September anymore, the Blue Jays certainly haven’t done it for a few years. You know that you have to put a player on the 40-man roster in order to call him up, right? And make room for him by taking someone else off the roster? And start his service clock? There are plenty of reasons not to call kids up in September.
- ray bMW - Just as his detractors often pointed to Halladay, Dustin McGowan, Wells and Rios as the great players that J.P. inherited (you really don’t hear much about that now, do you?)
When the general manager arrived the Jays also had Orlando Hudson, Jason Werth, Felipe Lopez, Cesar Izturis, and Chris Carpenter. What was the general manager’s return from dumping these guys. Jason Fraser, Encarnacion, and a couple of wanna be pitchers from the Reds. Yea, not much.
There was a Hillenbrand-Gibbons confrontation. There was a Gibbons-Lilly confrontation. There a JP-Dunn fiasco. There was a BJ Ryan fiasco. There was a Frank Thomas, Kevin Mench, Brad Wilkerson fiasco. There was big Hinske contract which ended with Jays ending up paying him to play with the Red Sox. There was the Vernon Wells’ contract that only has 107 million remaining over the next five seasons, for a guy that can’t even play centre field anymore, to say nothing of how his hitting has morphed. Too bad the general manager couldn’t talk some sense into Paul Godfrey (the self anointed baseball expert). There were a few lies to the fans and media, but too few to mention. There were a few leaks to Rosenthal. Looks like this is what finally set Beeston off.
So there you have it, the 50 cent general manager with the million dollar mouth and the 10 million dollar ego. As the general manager himself has said on many occasions he will have no problem finding another job when he is shown the door here….so adios big guy. Thanks for all ya done for our franchise and good luck in your future endeavours.
MW: Your first paragraph is pretty strong, but pretty disingenuous. Had Ricciardi kept Hudson, Werth, Lopez and Izturis, they’d all have left as free agents - as they all did the teams to which they were traded. Carpenter we’ve gone over thousands of times.
- stat ladyMW: One would think, though, that since Beeston told us last month that his successor would be named “in short order”, that they know who the guy is and he’d probably have signed off on Anthopoulos.
Has Beeston ever told us the truth about anything yet. I haven’t seen it. I suspect his firing of the general manager was simply a spontaneous reaction to his final leak to Mr. Rosenthal. I seriously doubt he took the time to discuss a replacement with the new president, if such a person really exists. You would think that after their experience with hiring two assistants (Ash and JP) the Jays would try a different approach.
_____________________________
MW: I think that’s I’d rather have Shaun Marcum, Ricky Romero, Marc Rzepczynski and Brett Cecil than Chamberlain and Hughes.
Say what ??
MW: Sorry, I don’t know what that apostrophe-S was there.
- stat ladyMr. Wilner
Thank you for fine work….
Do you agree JP had to go? What would you have done/do if you were the GM? (you have my vote for the job)
MW: I do agree that J.P. had to go. What would I do? Check last week’s post, it’s all there.
- Jim RomeMW: I don’t remember J.P. saying anything about a “first really great championship team” - I think your memory may be failing you there.
I remember this JP press conference. Godfrey was standing alongside him (and didn’t say a word to correct him). I distinctly remember wondering if the new general manager knew anything at all about the Gillick-Beeston era in Blue Jay history. He sounded like he truly thought the Jays had always been a mediocre team or worse.
MW: Please find me a story about that.
- stat ladyMy bad Mike, I was thinking of McGill not McMaster, but still, as far as Canadian universities go, a fairly high end one I think.
- Sean in LethbridgeRegarding the supposition by many (tomorrows “conventional wisdom” apparently) that JP was Rosenthal’s source:
I believe I understand your remark to imply that it is a reasonable supposition, not that you know that it is Beeston’s supposition (or that it is in fact true) - am I understanding you correctly?
Secondly to that point - my personal thesis had been that the reason JP was canned early was simply because the explosion of this story forced Beeston’s hand - which is to say that there was no practical way to exclude the sitting GM from today’s meetings or alternately to include a lame duck in the drama as if he still had a role. Thus the only alternative was to go ahead and make the move.
Would you consider than an equally valid possibility? Or do you know something that would make you lean towards the former supposition?
On a slightly different topic - is it reasonable to suppose that the vote of confidence Gaston got today is not necessarily a guarantee that he will in fact manage next year?
the alternatives being that Gaston waits a bit and resigns on his own terms, or that Beeston is simply shifting the responsibility onto the new president rather than doing the very difficult chore of axing Cito himself?
the reason I ask is that I simply cannot fathom that savy baseball men as Beeston and AA presumably are can possibly be looking at Cito’s managing this year and REALLY think he “did a good job.” If WE can see it, surely THEY can?
MW: Surely. You’re understanding me correctly, your personal thesis is equally valid, and there’s no guarantee that Cito will be the manager next season.
- WillRainYikes - I hate to see the club making decisions based on what the fans want. How can Beeston talk out of one side of his mouth and say that they may ‘load up’ with this team next year to make a run, but at the same time sack the man who pup the team together. It seems duplicitus to me.
The thing is, with the position the Blue Jays are in with respect to the market for baseball in Toronto, and that they compete in the AL East, they have to continually rebuild and hope they catch lightning in a bottle. So, I guess, we need to start over again.
The first step in that process in rebuilding would be try and divest the club of vernon wells and his contract. It seems to me that the only way to successfully do that is to package him with Doc.
To me, that makes sense.
MW: It doesn’t make sense to me.
- Paul Ogreat blog posts today overall. Please permit me to follow up:
I can certainly see it would not be practical for you to break the clubhouse news during the year. But what about all the scribes who purport to have such insight and information about this team? Their insights appear to be more opinion than fact.
JP WAS ineffective overall. 1. They were never in the hunt for the postseason. 2. In my view 5 games over .500 in a 162 game season is mediocre. It’s just a bit better than average. Overall his teams were under .500. 3. He alienated a lot of people including many fans and much of the media. The media counts because the media is the fans’ window on the product. 4. He does not leave the organization in a strong condition. Many issues need to be addressed from the roster to coaching staff to marketing.
I hope you keep your blog going over the next few months Mike as the Jays’ plans unfold. And that you keep appearing regularly on the Fan. I’d love to hear you and McCown discuss this team at some point.
In the meantime take a well-deserved holiday!
MW: Not until after the World Series. J.P. failed to get the team to the playoffs - in a vacuum that would mean he was ineffective. Unfortunately, he didn’t operate in a vacuum.
- JCAll I can say about JP is NEXT!
Now let’s get on with running Citon out of town. The game has passed him by. Many people in their 60’s and 70’s can relate to younger generations, not this 60 someting Cito. Thanks for the work in the past Cito, now please exit stage left, don’t let the door hit you in the butt.
- BobTime for one more rant…….Regardless of whether or not J.P. was the source of any leaks to the media as to the players and Cito, the bottom line is the players have obviously been complaining to J.P. about their on field boss!
If in fact J.P. was the “leak” I have to admit I for one am ok with having this stuff out there for us all to read up on as to cause and effect.
You just can’t go out and lay all the blame on J.P. Fact is, if you listed the 4 causes for this current effect J.P. would rank fourth after the players, Cito and Beeston.
If you vultures (fans) out there who write in here with all the negative stuff about J.P. were even close as to understaning MLB you would clearly see the fine job overall that J.P. truly has done with respect to bringing in and drafting solid players.
For certain J.P. is his own worst enemy behind the microphone at times with regard to comments made and the p.r. side of the game. None of us are perfect! For certain part of his job, however hardly what he was brought in here to do as a priority.
The same hypocrites were applauding him at the time with the long term deals to Vernon Wells and Alex Rios. The same guy who brought in virtually unknown players to Toronto fans, like a Scuttaro a Johnny Mac etc. who have become fan favorites! You will be the same group cheering the “future” of the Jays as built for the most part, by none other than J.P. Ricciardi!
Like him or not, over the last 3-4 years J.P. has brought in the horses that any on field boss would be kissing his feet for. He built very good teams, entertaining teams, competitive teams and in my book a real contender last season!
If you’r a real fan of MLB you would have enjoyed the game for what it is and what J.P. done in Toronto for it. Great teams, post season and WS championships are most certainly what you work towards, but in the end and like it or not, it is also just entertainment. J.P. did not fail at his job, the players and the manager did!
It truly is hillarious how Toronto fans can support overwhelmingly the TML and their dismal attempts at making the post season, yet be so hard on a team and GM that represents the same city with regard to their name. A team that has performed so much better in a much tougher sport with regard to the amount of regular season games played and making the post season.
In closing here, and with regard to the human element I will not ever understand how some can get such joy out of anothers’ misery. This is sadly, I suppose, in part known as the “human condition”, the real sad part of it.
I realize a change had to made! I don’t agree as to the reasons why however. For me it is…thanks J.P. for all you have done and for leaving the Jays with such a bright future.
Keep on doing what you do best Mike, and thank you.
- Bob (from Burlington)As far as “personality” is concerned I did not really care for JP. But as a GM, I think he did as well as one could do in the situation he was brought in to resolve. It ain’t easy being a GM when your first efforts upon arrival are to cut costs big-time.
The media giants of this city, Blair, McCown, et al, sufficiently changed public opinion [especially the superficial baseball fan] over the years to abject hatred of JP. Somehow he is a clown and those who work for him are the next miracle workers. I wonder if JP ever communicated with anyone else in the Blue Jays’ office about what he was doing.
Of all the GM’s including “the sainted one”, he was the only one I recall who was willing to go on the radio and answer fans’ questions — until this year.
The Jays have a good base of players for next year.
I read in an article the other day –perhaps it was in the Financial Post — that Rogers has already written off BJ’s $10 mil for next year
as well as another $5 mil.
You would think that after 42 years of the Maple Leafs not winning it all –that there would be a bit more understanding that winning the World Series is not a slam dunk for any GM — including Brian Cashman.
- Gary RMike,
JP didn’t win anything…and he embarrassed the franchise with things like the Adam Dunn situation (who last time I checked was pretty much living up to his end of being a pretty good baseball player). You work with a guy every week who gives you access to a team that you cover - tough to be critical…but you never seemed to find ANYTHING wrong with JP and talked about things always being out of his control - well over all these years he never won - and he was given plenty of leash and money to do so. He failed miserably - end of story.
MW: Your story - not the truth.
- garyMy vote is in: Wilner for GM, McCown for President…MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!
- CFMike,
Thanks for addressing the ‘sources’ issue. That JP fell on his sword seems perfectly plausible. At the end, it didn’t work out so this needed to happen. Better luck to JP going forward.
On JP, he was selling that he could do more with less. His plusses included the de-building years & the most recent moves to provide the next GM some flexibility in 2010. His minuses included Adam Dunn and adding then eating payroll. I’ll defer to your expertise on trades but it seemed 50-50 to me. JP didn’t have the push of multiple good young talent that Oakland did to pull it off and do more with less. Is that scouting, drafting coaching or the ultimate dodge, ‘it’s up to the players’ who knows. Again, better luck helps.
MW: The Blue Jays certainly had far less than their share of good luck in the Ricciardi era.
- Jake in ThornhillJP is a bright guy, a personable guy,he made some bad moves and some good moves, if he wasn’t in the AL east he had a team that for a few years would /could have made the playoffs and then who knows, with the pitching and defense they had they could have won and JP would look like a genious
- DJLets not kid ourselves Major League Baseball is broke, its like the Catholic church its broke, it needs to be fixed…the steroid scandal which MLB tried to ignore and the salary cap issues that rob places like Toronto are killing the game and the heritage.
Jp is a good man and a good baseball man…its baseball that needs to be tweaked
I think you’re exactly right. JP had to go, and it’s a shame.
Still eight games below Pythagoras. I suspect (!) you know what Baseball Reference calls that: bad luck. Really, really bad luck.
I’ve been highly skeptical of your proposals for next year, not because I don’t like them (except Figgins–aging speed (leading the AL in CS this year) and an inconsistent hitter!) but because other teams want all those guys, too, and for any given one of them you’re likely to end up in a contest that you’re likely to lose. Still, if you’re lucky you may get a couple of them, and even getting one would make a big difference. Given the bloodlust that’s out there, I’m glad you’re pushing a positive program. Way too many people talking about the Jays in this city sound like they don’t want the team to get better; they want it to be punished. And I’m afraid that they’re making it way too easy on whoever comes in to run this team, not to mention ownership. Blowing it up instead of pushing to win saves Rogers tens of millions of dollars. The people say blow it up? Happy to oblige!
- Cincinnatus C.michael,
you’ve got people contributing to this post with the idea that j.p. was a bad gen. mgr. thru and thru, some that thought he was doing all he could possibly do within the toughest division in all of mlb and others that felt there was a grey area in which his tenure resided.
personally, i do believe the latter to be true.
the man made some great trades, waiver calls, fa signings and some great draft selections. and of course just the opposite in all those same categories.
and at the end of the day no different really then all other gm’s, particularly the ones with limited budgets it seems where your mistakes are definitely magnified & can’t be covered up by just spending more money thru signings, trades etc…
but it’s been 8 yrs. and it certainly was time for a change for many different reasons.
and the best way to see who was actually right about this guy and his abilities will be to see if the next guy can do any better than just posting some very respectable win/loss records in this difficult division with no playoff enties. needless to say after this many yrs. of the fans waiting for a winner of some kind, only a playoff appearance or two will suffice. which is fair.
but i just hope that people that are fans of this organization don’t get too disenchanted if the next gm does all he can do within his power and put together some very very good ball clubs but still come up short in this division if things don’t change with the way the other usual suspects in this loop operate.
because in my mind, that’s going to be a real possibility going forward here. but this move had to be made for all of us to find out. no doubt there either because it was time.
so here’s wishing good luck to the next guy. cause’ he’ll need it i’m afraid…
- darrell bishopI don’t agree with your assertion that Jay fans are very, very happy. Are you kidding? Maybe the J.P. haters are but there are many who won’t be until Cito has been ****d as the Mgr. This is a start but the real work will happen when the new Pres and GM arrive.
MW: There are FAR more Toronto sports fans who are excited about Ricciardi being fired than there would be if Gaston were to be let go.
- CarlosHey Mike. I went up and down the roster a few times, and for the life of me can’t get to more than 4 players who may have a gripe with Cito. Wells and Overbay have to blame someone for their miserable seasons, Accardo, who has a legitimate complaint, and Snider. If Snider is one of the dirty dozen you can’t name, I’d send him packing faster than a good lefty can strike him out. As far as the mutiny goes, 1 good meeting and 24 hours later it seems to have been quelled substantially. I reread your mutiny blog, and it read like these differences were irrepairable. My gut feeling tells me Cito will resign in the off season, which is good news for you, because if the Jays were to flourish next year under Cito, you would have an extremely hard time living it down. If the 2009 Jays were expected to win 95 games and this is the result, Cito’s moves would be held to a higher accountability. But most of us predicted 75, and it really isn’t his fault as he looked down the bench most of the season and saw, hmmm, MacDonald or Bautista or Millar as my right handed pinch hitter, and wow, should I leave Snider in against a tough lefty to embarass himself once again.
MW: I’m sorry that you can’t find more than four players who might have a gripe with Cito. I know of at least a dozen, if not many more. There will be nothing for me to have to live down if Cito is back next year - I haven’t said a word that wasn’t true.
- daveI am aghast at reports that Ricciardi threw Cito under the bus. If true hope they will be documented in the near future although certainly Ken Rosenthal knows how to protect and continue to feed off a good source. I fully wxpwxt Ricciardi to go back to his old job as minor league scout except this time with the Red Sox or Yankees.
WHich brings me to my second point; I am very suspect of Alex Anthopolous. The Jays have had two rookie GMs in a row and look how those experiments turned out. Please can we get a guy with experience. And not a guy with exprience losing (e.g Jim Bowden) but a guy with a track record under tough circumstances. What is Terry Ryan doing now? Come to think of it he would make a good team president.
MW: Terry Ryan’s win-loss record as a General Manager is the same as J.P. Ricciardi’s.
- Ronabout how many comments per day do you reply with one word - “sigh”.
they seem to come everyday.
MW: It had been a while, actually.
- TheSunkenZealotHello.
I haven’t commented here in quite some time. I got busy with work and when not working, at the cottage, which has a serious lack of internets. Just so you know, I didn’t get angry with you or your blog, and I’m alive and… alive.
I still want the club to go for it next year, and I think it would’ve made a lot of sense to give that year to J.P., as one final shot. If the Jays are going to be blowed up real good, why not wait until after Ricciardi/ Gaston/ Halladay/ Overbay/ whoever else’s last contract year? I still like this team, and think it’s only a couple of moves or signings away from being pretty goshdarn good. I could go on, but you’re probably J.P.ed out already. But I will add, I understand the P.R. aspect of the firing.
And now, for something completely different -
If MLB is so intent on keeping things so divisional, maybe revenue sharing should be too. A certain amount of the pot could be divvied up, with a larger share going to the winningest division from the previous year.
The thing with that is, top divisions will just get farther and further ahead. (Mayhapsibly, I should have thought this through) The real answer is a salary cap, but that’s not going to happen any time soon. I guess, with the current system, the payroll difference has to happen somewhere, and I disagree with MLB that that somewhere should continuously be Toronto, Baltimore and Tampa. Oh well. As the Hulkster would say, “Whatcha gonna do?”
To end things positiver, I have to say it’s been nice seeing the bats come alive the last month or so. Apparently, Jean Tennis is no pre-Madonna. That’s gotta be it.
Thanks
- Dilly in DundasGood day Mike,
I’m sure this is too early to ask you this but I’m curious if you have any insight into what AA’s drafting philosophy might be? Can we hope for pushing for overslot next year?
Also I read an article in the sun today suggesting we may see the Gibbons hold over coaching staff let go in the off season. I hope this is pure speculation because that would be a terrible thing for this club to loose Butter and Arnsberg because Cito feels offended or whatever his reason is.
Thanks for the blogging during the year, I enjoyed it.
MW: Thanks! It’s not up to the General Manager to decide whether or not to pay over slot in the draft.
- ClintHey Mike!
At 32, is Alex the youngest ever MLB GM? 32 seems really young.
Also, if Cito is gone, does this make it less likely Chone Figgins will come in the off-season?
Thanks
MW: Theo Epstein was 28 when he got the Red Sox job.
- James from MississaugaMW: That’s not news about Rios.
My point had nothing to do with whether it was news or not. It had to do with a very similar conversation you had with JP Ricciardi about Adam Dunne.
While I’m posting, I wonder if the abrupt firing came about because Ricciardi was involved in some way with the Cito Gaston mess. I don’t mean that he instigated it, but that he heard about it and failed to warn his manager.
- isabella reyesI do believe Aaron Hill’s contract was created by Alex Anthopolous, not JP Riccardi. That’s what I’ve read everywhere since he signed it. It was signed under his watch, but he wasn’t the creative force behind it.
MW: Alex came up with the idea of the multiple options, for sure, but there’s no question that the driving force behind wanting to sign Aaron Hill (and Alex Rios - they signed at the same time) to long-term contracts was Ricciardi.
- Kevin A.Wilner,
I decided to watch the final game of the season as opposed to football today. Thank God I did because otherwise I wouldn’t see the ring leader to get Cito ousted (Vernon) go 0 for 4 leaving 4 on base. Way to show us how it’s done :-)
Anyways, this will be my last post of the year, so I just wanted to thank you for allowing ‘REAL’ Bluejay fans a forum to air out their frustrations and talk baseball. Although it’s rare I’d agree with you (especially when it came to J.P.), btw is it wrong to still celebrate his dismissal a day later? I do appreciate your insights.
MW: How do you know Wells was the ringleader?
- BobbyI’m actually sad that JP is gone. He was a baseball guy. He did his time, and deserved this position when he was hired. However, I believe that he didn’t totally have the keys to the car. I think that there are some non-baseball people making baseball decisions for JP. He made a mistake with the Adam Dunn comments but was probably frustrated by that point in time. I cannot believe that we are trusting this to the baby-faced Anthopoulous (sp?). Hopefully his only move will be to trade Roy, then be out of town before Jays fans can direct their hate on him. If JP had total control, then why wouldn’t he have dealt Roy at the deadline? Just seemed to me that someone upstairs was telling JP not to deal Roy. Doesn’t add up. I wish him well.
MW: I don’t know what the fact that you think Anthopoulos is baby-faced has anything to do with anything.
- Dale“The president and the new GM have given Cito Gaston a vote of confidence going forward.”
Have they been watching some OTHER team during the season?
Do they not watch Gaston’s “strange” lineups that include,among other things, Kevin Millar batting CLEANUP, Not using Randy Ruiz much, strange use of the bullpen.
It’s not a crime to use a pinch hitter once in a while, maybe replacing Millar when a RIGHT handed pitcher comes in to face the Jays and show some concern when Jay hitters are being thrown at.
Glad this season is over but how can things improve with Cito Gaston still in there…Oh, and it would be nice to finally find out just what is planned for the team…Now that I have vented, as it were…
Just a question..Will your blog continue during the playoffs? Hope so because it’s fun reading…..Thanks…
MW: It will continue in some form during the playoffs, I haven’t decided what form yet, though. Thanks!
- DougMichael,
I have heard Joe Mauer say he credits his increased power this year from trusting himself and being able to take more chances in hitter’s counts.
What do you think the reason for Aaron Hill’s surge in power is this year? He’s not quite as patient as Mauer so I’m not sure he gets as many hitter’s counts.
Also, do you keep any sort of presence on the blog over the off-season?
MW: Hill definitely doesn’t work the count as well as Mauer, so it’s not that. I think this is just one of those special years that happens once in a while - I certainly don’t expect Hill to be a 35-homer guy for the rest of his career. And yes, the bloggage never stops.
- Uncle BenMike,
Well it’s about time…Riccardi did not deserve more time on the job than Gord Ash did and he can never say he drafted or developed a player as good as Roy Halladay or Cris Carpenter. It’s pretty pitiful that on his way out he tries to sabotage Cito and the team basically. He’s a real class act and I also find it interesting that most of the comments today seem to be pretty common..arrogance. JP always felt he knew more than anyone and had it’s pretty clear he will never get another GM job again unless maybe he sucks up to his old buddy Billy Beane who’s moneyball ideas have pretty much proven to be idiotic. JP changed his story and excuses every year and the bottom line is he was an under 500 GM and when his writing on the wall was clear chose to throw his own manager under the bus and now it pretty much appears that the MUTINY which I’m sure you loved wasn’t as big as reported. Not that more than a few of the players had any right to complain. Here’s a summary of JP…he drafts Lind but then gives up on him basically last year…then Cito gets hired and immediately asks for Lind from the minors and develops him into one of the best hitters on the team. JP badmouths Ash’s albatross signing of Delgado and then goes and does it about five times with Wells, Hinske Thomas, Ryan, Rios oh but he can’t afford to take a chance on Cris Carpenter. Good bye JP…enjoy New England and your american reporter friends.
MW: Glad you got your chance to vent, but……sigh.
- Coryhey mike;
Just some astute observations from what has just transpired;
John gibbons was universally “favoured” by the clubhouse and a genuinally nice individual, yet the players just didn’t preform for him, hence riccardi disposing of him to save his job, and cito is riviled by the clubhouse, yet still win 75-76 games and preformed better once he took over for gibbons; I’d rather have gaston and tennace fullfill their contracts for next year, he’s a known quanitity, gaston is not perfect but no manager is-would like to see joe maddon hired if he ever leaves tampa bay. Vernon wells is an outstanding baseball player but has performed below expectations and has a rediculious contract and suspect attitude, maybe the jays should trade him for milton bradley- rotten apple for rotten apple, just a thought mike, do you think wells two lousy seasons and injuries have anything to do with mlb’s crackdown of PED’s, this doesn’t seem to far fetched. People don’t hate wells for his contract, just that the 129 million should have been given to roy halladay, the true blue jay leader, who always performs. Like overbay for his defence, but ruiz deserves the position based on his minor league body of work and performance this year, plus he’s cheaper than overbay’s 7.9 million dollar contract, and millar’s not that lousy @ first base to keep around for very cheap money. Let barajas and scutaro go if they want big money- keep chavez and phillips who can fill the role, and chavez is much better than barajas @ throwing out batters and hits for a higher average. like beeston for giving alex anthopolous a chance, and agree with lacava and butterfield getting promoted if cito retires. Finally riccardi wasn’t the worst gm in toronto’s history, just the most vehemetley disliked, let’s see if he catches on anywhere else other than oakland. Great job as usual mike, still like to see you in a managerial role with the team in some capacity, you have a great mind for the game. p.s give cito credit for what he did with lind and hill, both were question marks at the beginning of the season and now cornerstones of the franchise.
MW: I can’t believe you actually want to keep Millar, Cito didn’t do anything with Hill and Lind but write their names in the line-up every day, and Cito stopped using Lind against lefties on a regular basis halfway through the season. How did this “Wells had a poor 2008″ myth get perpetuated? You’re not the first who has said this as though it’s a fact.
- robert.sHi Mike,
I agree about many of the good moves JP made during his tenure. I think turning Glaus into Rolen, regardless of how it turned out in the end, was another great move.
You quite correctly point out that JP was likely handcuffed by ownership on the Wells contract. However, if we’re going to absolve him of responsibility for those deals, don’t we also need to acknowledge the great contribution of the others in the front office and scouting department in the excellent drafting and pickups of guys like Downs and Tallet? He was certainly not alone in his failures or his successes.
MW: No one ever is.
- JonI fully agree with Dave Hodge today. He basically said that from a PR standpoint alone JP deserved what he got. JP was pretty much the one and only GM that loved to be front and centre with the microphones in his face, when in actuallity he should be taking the approach the other 29 GM’s take, and that is to delegate the PR stuff regarding the teams performance to the Manager. JP through many public appearances (ie wednsdays with JP) took shots at his employer, the leauge the fanbase and other players, Whic fustrated the fans, many well known media personalities and ultimatly his employer.
By the way Mike, I would just like to ask you, What is a great team by your standards. I notice in a post or two that you keep referring to the 2006-2008 blue Jays as great. Yet these were teams that didn’t even come close to a wild card or division title and in 2008 the team couldn’t hit a beach ball, there situationl hitting was atrosious. A handful of guys having good years does not deem a team as great. With great teams like the bulls the Yankees, New England Patroits.It was all about players coming together to fullfill their roles to form a great chemistry which later translated into a great team. To call the 2006-2008 blue jays greats is a slap in the face to some of major league sports greatest teams.
MW: No, it’s not. To call them one of the greatest teams in sports would have been that. By my standards, a great team is one that does a whole bunch of things well. For example, the 2008 Blue Jays were the best pitching team in the majors and had one of the best defensive teams - they also outscored their opposition by more than any team in the league but one. They were also dreadfully unlucky.
- ThomasBoy, there’ a lot of press about JP’s firing and the Jays lately.
Can you check on this ? Some blogs said JP ’s record of Wins / $ Payroll over the last 4 yrs were among the top GM’s in baseball ???
Also, can you confirm this ? Some sources naming tweets from players and staff said the clubhouse opposition was so prevalent, even guys like
Adam Lind voiced frustrations
like : ” If I’m late on a fastball, then he says I’m not aggressive, if I’m early on a change, then I’m not staying back…Too many contradictions from every direction…never know what the game plan is and how I’ll be used …”
Carl Y.
MW: I’d like to know where that quote came from. The wins/payroll dollars sounds right - three straight winning seasons prior to this one with a lower payroll than any perennial playoff team.
- CarlMike
Interacting with fans as much as you do, can you explain why so many fans took great umbrage that Ricciardi spoke his mind about Adam Dunn like somehow it affected them personally? I really didn’t see it as a big deal and enjoyed JP’s frankness in a world of sport cliches.
MW: Those same fans also all seem to ignore the fact that it took Dunn until the week before spring training started to actually get a job this year, so most other teams likely thought the same thing. It was a very unusual thing for a G.M. to say, and it was about a player who could really have helped the Blue Jays, so I think that’s why so many got so upset. But the fact of the matter is that for the vast majority of sports fans in Toronto, no matter what J.P. said or did, it was the wrong thing.
- DanGreat article Mike.
I agree with you- he did some good things, some great things, some bad things, and some horrible things (probably not far off most GM records), but as a person, in his dealings with the fans and the media, he was basically insufferable, and therefore, his own worst enemy.
Mike don’t you think ownership is going about the changes bass ackwards? Shouldn’t a president be chosen, who is allowed to select a GM, who is in turn allowed to select a field manager?
Thanks for a great year Mike (in spite of it all), and I think Alan and Gerry are as good as it gets (and Tom set the bar awfully high).
MW: I don’t think J.P. did any horrible things. I think that they know who the President will be, they just can’t name him yet.
- LoveHateTheYankeesMike
Why do you think it’s taking so long for Beeston to find the right guy and will he be a baseball guy, or a “facilities” guy?
MW: I don’t know why it’s taking so long - unless the right guy is currently under contract to another team, and I expect it will be more of a baseball guy.
- DanWent into a coma the day after J.P. Ricciardi joined the Blue Jays eight years ago and just woke up in time to hear Jays’ Talk last night.
I knew that the Jays were going to be wildly successful under J.P.! He was, after all, the smartest baseball guy ever and many of us puckheads realized how lucky we were to have him amongst us, the great baseball unwashed of Toronto. And how prescient of Paul Godfrey to see this brilliance in what others might have seen as a scout from an organization of know-it-alls with more theories than rings.
And Mike Wilner confirmed on JaysTalk that my greatest hopes had been realized. J.P. had built teams described as very competitive, good , very good and excellent. I assume 3 or 4 division winners, a couple of pennants and at leat a third ring, another team better then this coming from the minor system.
Only question I have is “Why are they firing this guy?”
J.C.
MW: Sigh.
- jchenryFirst place New York Yankees called up Francisco Cervelli 23 yrs old, Mark Melancon 24, Mike Dunn 24..This is a first place team still playing for something..
There isn’t anyone to call up on the Jays farm..They are ranked 25th by Baseball America.. Arencibia isn’t ready to play or he would have been called up..No question about it..
This is why we see Millar and Bautista still in the lineup..There isn’t anyone younger to fill any spots right now..I guess this isn’t Riccardi’s fault either..Maybe Godfrey did all the drafting over the last 7 years..
MW: Melancon’s good, I like him.
- ray bIf AA ends up staying on as GM and ends up doing a better job than JP, I don’t want to hear anyone saying: “Well, at least he did a better job than JP,” because the bar hasn’t been set high.
MW: It’s been set a lot higher than you think.
- DavidMW: Why did you feel you had to censor the word “shut”? More importantly, what do you feel J.P.’s worst move was, without the benefit of hindsight?
Gary Denbo Hiring as hitting coach!
MW: Without the benefit of hindsight!
- Matthaha..
Mike your reply to comment 66 is hilarious.
Thanks for another year! Love reading/listening to your stuff.
MW: Thank you!
- James Hmike the jays r 75 87,to fininsh the 09 season, what happens when a team has the same recond for the draft. I beleave the jays well pick 10th mybe 8th or 9th. ( 9 picks in the first three rounds)not a bad start for alex .
MW: I’m actually not sure how they’ll break the tie with Oakland and San Diego.
- JAYS FAN FROM THE STARTJust read over at Baseball Prospectus an interview w/ Aaron Hill. Love Him!
Interesting to read between the lines on this one.
Thank you so much, Mike, for your blog and your time this season.
SO many of us just read and don’t post questions or comments often but I am so thankful you are available and willing to ‘field’ all questions. Take good care!
MW: Thanks!
- VernonHi,
How many more games would the Jays have won if there was a “better manager than Cito”? I have seen lots of negative comments from people relating to his in-game decisions, and that got me wondering how much difference a manager really can make on a team that is not very good. I know there were a lot of one-run losses.
MW: I wonder, too. I used to think a manager didn’t make much difference at all, good or bad, but one really does have to wonder when they lose 27 games by one run with a manager who consistently didn’t put his players in the right positions to give them the best chance to succeed.
- DeanMW: More importantly, what do you feel J.P.’s worst move was, without the benefit of hindsight?
Dealing Hudson and his 5.5 WARP value with a $2.6 M contract for an injury riddled DH in Glaus and his 2.5 WARP at $11.0 M per year, and then installing his new DH at 3B on artificial turf where he ought to know Glaus would have no chance to hold up physically. He dealt a younger player for an older player. He dealt a better player for a weaker player. He dealt a healthy player for an injury riddled player. And he dealt a 2.6 million dollar player for an 11.0 million dollar player. And then he played his new acquisition at the incorrect position. I know MW supports this move, which tells ya a lot about the kind of support JP gets here.
This was a clear example of his problems with evaluating players’ value properly and knowing how to spend money when it became available to him. He was like a kid in a candy store when the payroll was increased with no clue of how to spend it, but determined to spend it nonetheless. Ironically he was a much more effective GM when the payroll was low.
MW: Your opinion is not an unpopular one, but I saw the deal as one of a surplus player (Aaron Hill had shown he could take over at second base) for a desperately needed power source (who wound up hitting 38 home runs in his first season as a Blue Jay).
- stat ladyMW: Please find me a story about that.
It was televised on Sportsnet in 2001. I didn’t read a story, I listened to him speak on television. You likely did too.
Before you criticize others’ memories you should recollect that you chastised and corrected a poster, twice, for saying the Jays were 89-73 in 1983. One thing I got to hand to you Mr. Wilner is you have no lack of nerve or arrogance.
_____________________________
MW: I made a mistake? I’ll tender my resignation right now.
- stat ladyHey Mike,
A couple of questions for you.
1. Do you think the Blue Jays are/should be interested in LHP Aroldis Chapman?
2. I’m 14 years old, and in my first year of high school, and I am seriously considering a career in a baseball frontoffice, hopefully one day as a MLB GM. How does, one, persue that career?
If it weren’t for you, I probably wouldn’t have even considered this, thank you for another great year of baseball.
MW: Wow, I’m honoured. Thanks! 1 - Are? I don’t know. Should be? Yes. 2 - Start calling MLB teams looking for any job you can get once you turn 17 or 18. Do anything they’ll let you do, in any department. Then, while you’re working for free for a few years, go get yourself an MBA.
- JazzI dont’ understand why rogers wouldn’t sell this team. They really can’t outspend Boston or New York. they’re tied in to Well’s huge contract, their fan base has last interest. I think if they we’re serious they would have got a more experienced GM in here. Nothing against AA but this is one tough spot to but a rookie manager in. Boston got away bringing in a young Esptein but they have the payroll we will and do not have that payroll. For rogers to keep this mess right now would be a bad business decision.
MW: Why can’t they spend with Boston?
- davehHey Mike,
I’m glad the season’s over, yes there were some brights spots, but it’s certainly one Jays fans are gonna want to forget about. Anyways, that’s my take on the season. Two questions I wanna ask you though:
1) Do you have any idea when we might get word on the direction and payroll the Jays are going to take in the offseason?
and
2) If you were a betting man, what would you say the chances are that the Jays are big spenders (or traders) this offseason?
Thanks,
James
P.S. Thanks for another well broadcast year.
MW: 1 - Later this month, I think. 2 - I would say there’s a far better chance that the Jays won’t be big spenders than that they will.
- James R.Mike. It’s time you faced reality. JP’s reign was an unmitigated failure. The essence of pro sports is winning or losing. He simply didn’t win. Use all the stats you want to support your claim but they DIDN’T WIN. End of story. Why can’t you face reality?
MW: Because it’s really not that simple.
- Terry McDonaldWell, I guess I’m glad that’s over. I can’t even imagine what being a Cubs or Mariners fan is like year after year.
So that last loss is by one run, in extra innings, on a throwing error, to the last place team, in the toughest division in baseball. I’m not sure what kind of punctuation mark that puts on the end of a sad little year for the Jays, but it seemed too typical of what hasn’t worked out this year.
Playing without Scutaro and Lind on the last day… well, what can I say?
As for what’s next, what does the press conference on Monday mean to us fans, potentially. Or is there still a press conference on Monday?
GW
MW: There’s no press conference on Monday. And what can you say about playing without Scutaro and Lind? They’re both hurt.
- Greg WMichael,
In 110 ABs with the Jays Randy Ruiz finished with an OPS of 1.019, and put up similar numbers in AAA.
If the team chooses to go with a conservative budget, do you think that means there is more of a place for Ruiz on the team next year? (Of course, there is still the Cito factor…)
MW: If the team chooses to cut payroll, I’d expect Ruiz will play every day.
- Uncle BenThanks for bloggin this year, Mike. I really enjoyed it. Have a good off-season.
MW: Thanks!
- Jeff P.Mike,
I find when you and alot of the peolple that agree with you kind of have two confilicting idea’s about the division yet you think they are the same.
You have expressed your discontentment over and over about the division yet you also express your discontententment about Rogers and the lack of money they spend. This is rather confusing. If your saying that Rogers can and should up the payroll because of their wealth then why should the league make adjustment to the division if rogers can but just does not want to all out invest. Rogers media is a pretty wealthy division in the communications empire in this case then why should the league feel sorry for the jays. Who do you blame Mike? the league or Rogers, because it doesn’t make sense to blame both like you do at times. logically Rogers would be the one to blame in this situation because when an individual or a group of investers purchase a team unless there is an alterior motive for ownership like sdvertising and programming than as an owner or owners you should show that you are 100% fically committed to the team. Major league Baseball to me should not be taking the heat. Yankees and Red Sox have built multiple revenue streams that have contributed to their success in sighning players, they have earned their success by investing in all aspects of the organization so why should the league change things because the Yankees and sox are smarter about business. In Tampa there is no market it’s all about the bucs, and Baltimore is simply doing things through the draft. Owners make the fiscal call, that should not have anything to do with the league unless you are breaking salery cap rules in which case the owners pay taxes, which should not be a problem for conglomerates like Rogers. Mike have you asked yourself why the Rogers people are not making as big a deal about the division as you and the people that agree with you. Does it occure to you that maybe the Rogers people are quite contentent seeing the yankees and sox every year as much as they do because it’s a big draw in all aspects. Radio televison and at the dome. I really think Mike that this division talk needs to stop because clearly Rogers is not complaining.
MW: Rogers isn’t complaining because Rogers really doesn’t say anything. Beeston isn’t complaining because he knows that what the fans want to hear is “you have to beat the best to be the best”, but the truth is that the Jays, Rays and Orioles are the only teams in the game with the deck permanently stacked against them. You’re right, though, Rogers could certainly spend the money with the big boys if they wanted to. If the big draw of the Yankees and Red Sox is a factor, then that’s pretty short-sighted.
- ThomasMike,
What do you think was the catalyst for this tumultuous season? Was it the loss of 2 starting pitchers McGowan and Marcum followed later by an injury to Litsch that led to this dismal
effort?
Was Halladay’s attempted trade
dictated from the above event?
What do you think will be the season ticketholders’ response to this season and how will Rogers answer?
Also,giving the reigns to Anthapolous as GM before a president is hired is a smart move?
MW: The loss of 60% of the starting rotation before the season started was kind of big, and the loss of another 20% of it a week in didn’t help, either. But major contributors to the poor season were the failings of Vernon Wells, Alex Rios and B.J. Ryan, and the fact that Travis Snider didn’t take the ball and run with it.
- MarkMike, how many GMs get on the radio weekly to talk to fans on the phone?
MW: None.
- FredI think Blair summed up my thoughts quite succinctly at the end of his lengthy (and good) article in the Globe:
“The bottom line is that after eight years the Blue Jays are no closer to the postseason than they were when Ricciardi took over and they have a fan base that is almost completely disengaged.”
- Kevin A.On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being outstanding, how would you grade the job JP did in his 8 years with the Jays?
Also, what will you miss about dealing with him as a member of the media?
MW: I’ll say he was a seven. And I’ll miss his availability the most. I’m sure I’ll be able to talk to Alex Anthopoulos any time I need to, but J.P. was awfully easy to find.
- CamHey Mike,
Thanks for another great year of the blog. I think I left maybe one or two comments all year long, but never missed a read. I went with the: “Don’t have anything important to say, don’t say anything at all!” motto. I wish more readers would follow my suit. See ya next year. Oh and good luck next year, with J.P. gone, I think you might be public enemy #1 in Jaystalk land, as always though, I got your back!
MW: I hope not - I think a lot of people turned a lot of their J.P. rage on me because they couldn’t talk to him (or shriveled up when they had the chance), and now he’s gone.
- SpiderSIlvaHi Mike; if Randy Ruiz couldn’t even hit one home run in four at bats today I don’t think he deserves a spot on the team next year.
MW: I think that’s fair.
- Zackwho are the starting pitchers on tuesday
MW: Rick Porcello and Scott Baker. You’re already online, you really needed to ask me this?
- TheSunkenZealotyour prediction for the winner on tuesday?
MW: It’s one baseball game, who the heck knows? Italy can beat Canada in one game.
- TheSunkenZealotPS…… if you have been a GM for 8 years and amongst the accomplishments listed in your professional obituary is the acquisition of a starting pitcher with a 5.75 era and losing record with Jays, you were incredibly lucky to last 8 years.
MW: Your P.S. is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen.
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OK the let me explain.
Over the course of eight years, I would guess JP made several hundred roster transactions. You are obviously a supporter of his and cited Cory Lidle as an acquisition JP did not get proper credit for.
For the record, in 2003, Lidle was 12-15 (when was the last time a Jay lost 15 games in a single season?). His era that year was a staggering 5.75. For these negligible results he was paid 5.35 million by the Jays.
To be generous his value was small and he cost the Jays much more than he was worth.
His acquisiton was a salary dump by Oaklnd and thus the low price the Jays paid to get him (two middling prospects). I think its pretty obvious this 5.35 million could have been better spent.
But lets assume for the sake of argument Lidle actually contributed something to the organization.
The mere fact that a JP supporter has to refer to this acquisition amongst the several hundred JP made over his tenure is clear evidence that at best JP was a mediocre GM.
MW: No, it isn’t. He acquired a guy (may he rest in peace) who had had two consecutive seasons with a WHIP under 1.2 and an ERA under 3.90 who was 31 years old for nothing on a team that needed starting pitching. He didn’t have a good year. You don’t think every GM acquires tons of pitchers who wind up having a bad year?
- ProkopecI would like to take a stab at the 12 Jays you mentioned that have issues with Cito.
Halladay, Listch, Marcum, Accardo, Downs, Barajas, Overbay, Hill, McDonald, Wells, Snider and Ruiz.
My hunch is Beeston and Anthropolous have given Cito a vote of confidence because Cito has already signalled to them this is his last year and due to his popularity with the fans they want to let him exit gracefully.
But then what do I know anyway.
MW: Certainly nothing about this.
- ProkopecThere is one thing that bothers me. According to Elliot’s article in the Sunday Sun, a Red Sox official had this to say about Rios… “We offered them half of what we did for Halladay and that wasn’t bad”.
So it really doesn’t look like a brilliant salary dump, but perhaps poor planning (unless of course the Jays were asked to take on salary they didn’t want in exchange for Rios)
MW: You have to think that the Jays would have been willing to jump at any offer that would allow them to get rid of Rios or Wells without taking any money back, so I’m pretty sure that scout’s got it wrong.
- steveI know Ricciardi often complained about how difficult it was to compete against the Red Sox and Yankees. Many people said it was a crutch and he should just deal with it. But you know what, Baseball is behind the times and there is no more need for elitist professional teams in North America. The other three major leagues have salary control and most teams have a reasonable shot at winning a title. 17 years of sub 500 ball by the Pirates is ridiculous…if people want elitist teams, cheer for Manchester United in the EPL.
Anyway my list of Jays who meet or exceeded expectations for 2009.
Lind
- steveRuiz
Hill
Scutaro
McDonald
Chavez
Barajas
Frasor
Halladay
Camp
Rzepczynski
Romero
Hi Mike,
First of all, I want to commend you for a job well done on this blog. In the few times that I’ve mustered the courage to write something, you have always responded to my comments and questions with a lot of good insight and objectivity. You always make me feel valued as a guest on your blog. After writing something about the players’ mutiny, I thought that was it for me this season, but J.P. Ricciardi’s firing has renewed my interest in writing one last time this season. This time I have more questions than comments. Did Mr. Ricciardi have a feeling he was going to be fired at the end of the season? If that is the case, why would he leak something to certain members of the media to make Mr. Gaston look bad, especially if it carried the possibility of the embarrassment of being fired sooner? Notwithstanding the fact that the issues raised against Gaston are true, it doesn’t make sense to bring down a person you yourself hired to be the manager of the team a year ago. I assume there is some animosity between Ricciardi and Gaston? If so, why didn’t he just hire someone else when it turns out Gaston was not the most appropriate manager for this current group of players anyway, based on the experiences of the ‘94-’97 seasons and this season?
I am amazed at the number of players who have concerns with Cito Gaston (you mentioned at least a dozen players in replying to someone else’s post). While it would satisfy my dying curiosity to know who these players are, I understand that you cannot betray their confidences, at least right now. Maybe you can let us know in a few years when this thing is just a distant memory? I agree with you that is very difficult to get rid of the ‘mutineers’ in this case, because of their sheer numbers and their status as star professional athletes who are valuable assets to the team. Now would this incident discourage any potential new manager from signing on, assuming Cito Gaston eventually leaves (retires/resigns/gets fired)?Btw, I like your insight about it being difficult for the players to confront someone who is a national icon. Conversely, it must be hard being Cito Gaston right now. To have to deal with players who don’t like your management style when your team (and the rest of the country for that matter) had already honoured you in its ‘level of excellence’. It would be hard for him to stay unless he can get the renewed support/respect of the players, the GM and ownership.
Moving on and trying to sort through the numerous comments for and against J.P. and Cito, one can appreciate that both men have their share of strengths and weaknesses that rightly or wrongly are the bases of public opinion against them. May I ask you then, objectively speaking, was J.P. a good GM for the Jays, and was/is Cito a good manager? Was J.P.’s firing good for the team, just as you hinted that Cito stepping aside would be good for the team being more competitive on a consistent basis? What do you think are the parameters for both men to succeed in their respective roles?
Again, thanks always for your responses and look forward to hearing from you and the broadcast team next season!
MW: Thanks. First, it’s important to note that we don’t know who leaked the story to Ken Rosenthal. You can’t simply assume it was J.P. As for the other stuff, I think Ricciardi was a good General Manager, but that he had to go to satisfy the bloodlust of the fanbase. I don’t think Cito is the right manager for the team. I think that J.P. could succeed as a GM anywhere outside the A.L. East, and I think Gaston could succeed as a manager with a strong, veteran team that could win with the same nine guys playing nine innings everyday.
- AnthonyI’ll echo some sentiments here.
JP is a mediocre GM with some great successes and some great failures as well, both of which were out of his control. He went out and spent the money and made the commitments that he thought would make a great team.
Ultimately, the only way that the Jays will move forward is to change the expectations of the team and its fans. Clearly, Rogers has to find some direction for the team in a new president and make the decisions to dedicate money to payroll and go for it or to follow a Tampa Bay model and go for a long term rebuild.
Personally, I don’t think the elements are there in the upper management to put a serious effort to make it into the post season next year, so they’ll probably “fall into” a Tampa Bay option.
The fan base has to realize that as long as the unbalanced schedule is in the AL East that it will be a climb to get to a wild card spot. There is no room for error, so when the starting rotation and closers fell apart this year, that was about it for the Jays. Factor into it Wells and Rios not hitting well and you have pretty much a .500 season at best.
Regarding Cito, I really don’t know what to say. I have an issue with the leak from the clubhouse to the press and wish that they would have just talked to Cito before the issues came out. It seems unfair to put Cito under a bus. Certainly, despite how popular Cito is, he is the manager. I doubt he will change his style, so he needs to go in order to work with the team.
It kind of bothers me that we go to Rogers Centre to watch a team owned by Rogers, to watch the games on Rogers Sportsnet and to listen to games on Rogers 590. From an editorial perspective, how much does Rogers control the stories that are reported on the team? What are the Rogers reporters not saying? Are you more inclined to stay “on message”? For example, all of the commentators knew for a long time that were some Jays that were upset with Cito’s decision-making. Just after the midway point in the season, you started to point out more and more of Cito’s errors. It gives you the insight to predict and make yourself look better because you have the inside information that you are not sharing. I can absolutely see that there is some job protection going on because you aren’t willing to put yourself under the bus in a story you can’t collaberate. Ethically, I would probably do the same thing. But this problem wouldn’t necessarily be there if you didn’t work for the same employer as the Jays. Tough call.
Anyway, Mike, thanks for the fantastic blog. I know that it is a great deal of work for you. You’ve done an incredible job and have given the Jays fans a voice in this town. Thank you.
MW: “Rogers”, as I’ve said many times, has no control over the things I say on the radio or write on this blog. If I didn’t work for Rogers, I still wouldn’t have reported the mutiny story using only off the record sources. It’s not the right way to do things.
- Tim“Terry Ryan’s win-loss record as a General Manager is the same as J.P. Ricciardi’s.”
I wonder what Riccardi’s winning percentage is in games against every team other than Bos and NYY?
If the Jays were in the Central they likely would have won a few divisions - maybe even a wild card in the past 8 years and Blue Jay fans would be in love with Riccardi.
People tend to want to find villains or scapegoats when things don’t work out as they hope. Riccardi became that for many Blue Jay fans.
MW: Yes, he did.
- Jim MaronI feel particularly bad for Anthopolous when you look at what he is facing this year. The Jays are on the hook for approx $64 million in salary for just 7 players (Halladay, Ryan,Overbay, Wells, Hill, Encarnacion and Downs). On top of that they are on the hook for another $8.5 million to be paid to Wells as part of his contract signing bonus. You are now up to $72.5 million and you still have to pay 18 more players. There does not appear to be much flexibility in terms of solving the salary problem with the 7 metioned players (maybe move Downs), the rest you appear to be stuckwith. Now I want someone to tell me how Alex is going to sign free agents etc. without taking on more salary risk and perhaps no improvement in the near term. Their only hope is that some of the young pitchers and possibly one or two of the DL pitchers can come back and have above average seasons. The Jays will keep Halladay and hope all things fall into place where they are at least in contention at the trade deadline. If not, they will trade Halladay. Anyone who is expecting big off season moves is living in a dreamworld.
MW: If the Jays aren’t going to make big off-season moves to improve, they’ll trade Halladay.
- mike glattMW: No, it isn’t. He acquired a guy (may he rest in peace) who had had two consecutive seasons with a WHIP under 1.2 and an ERA under 3.90 who was 31 years old for nothing on a team that needed starting pitching. He didn’t have a good year. You don’t think every GM acquires tons of pitchers who wind up having a bad year?
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The fact is that despite his miserable performance, Lidle was amongst the “VERY GOOD MOVES“ you could cite as being made by JP. Again, on this topic you listed:
Lilly, Speier, Scutaro, McDonald, Tallet, Lidle and Downs.
How does this compare to 7 `VERY GOOD MOVES` by Gillick:
Alomar, Carter, White, Winfield, Molitor, Morris, Henderson.
Not a fair comparison? Gillick had relatively a bigger budget? How about 7 lower priced pickups:
Bell, Gruber, McGriff, Alexander, Henke, Ward and Cliff Johnson.
Gigantic difference from the 7 highlights you have chosen from the unmitigated disaster regime of JP right?
Rolling my eyes.
MW: Your second set of comparables is better than your first, because all the players in the first set were acquired after Gillick had had more than 10 years on the job - so that’s irrelevant. The second set were all great gets by Gillick, and all in the first eight years of his tenure, but it’s apples and oranges. It was a totally different era in the game. And again, Gillick might just be the greatest GM of all time. Anyone will fall short.
- Prokopec“MW: …what do you feel J.P.’s worst move was, without the benefit of hindsight?”
Frank Thomas, no question, and without the benefit of hindsight. Even if Thomas hit .320 with 40 HRs, the move didn’t make any sense - to spend 10% of the payroll on an aged bat for a team well outside of arms’ reach of contention baffles me. And that Thomas underperformed and became a clubhouse malcontent was simply salt in the wound.
MW: I would have gladly taken .320 with 40 homers.
- Terry BradleyGreat piece.
MW: Thanks.
- Evan WhiteWhat could simpler. It’s black or white. Either they win or they don’t.I’m tired of you making all the excuses of the positioning of draft picks etc. that will mean great things for the future You’re either delusional or unwilling to accept the fact that the J’s are not a good baseball team.Ricchiardi was a FAILURE and nothing you can say will change that.
MW: Sigh.
- Terry McDonaldMW: How did this “Wells had a poor 2008″ myth get perpetuated? You’re not the first who has said this as though it’s a fact.
Vernon Wells batted .300 last year and was the team leader in home runs, if I recall correctly. He had 20. But even so, his power output was way down from earlier years–2007 wasn’t great either. I remember discussions about his apparent power outage, so that might be the source of the ‘Wells had a bad year last year’ stuff.
Also, there have been a bunch of references here by you and others along the lines of ‘2008 was a great year for the Jays’. And it was a winning year. But the team was playing very frustrating baseball in the spring that year and sporadically throughout the early summer. They were bad enough to get their manager fired in mid-season, and the fans were grumbling like crazy. Their record improved dramatically when Cito Gaston came aboard. So whatever he’s perceived to have done wrong this season, he did a lot of right last season.
MW: You’re giving the “Vernon had a bad 2008″ crowd WAY too much credit. The 20 homers came in exactly 2/3 of a season, and his .496 slugging percentage was the third-best of his career. Gaston didn’t do a lot of right last season, he just provided a different voice for an underachieving team and came along at the right time. Remember, the team went 20-10 last May.
- isabella reyesHey, Mike
WOW, J.P is gone! do you think this was the right move? Also in hiring Alex.A? What do you think is his first move? And do you think Cito will be back now ? for next year?
Mike Wilner for CEO of the Blue Jays!
MW: All your questions are answered above.
- Raps FanInterim President & CEO Paul Beeston’s decision to appoint the 32-year-old Alex Anthopoulos the team’s new General Manager could be a brilliant choice. I think that Alex’s first move will be to appoint the New Senior Advisor to the GM… and his name is Pat Gillick Finally, Mr. Beeston will be true to his word and I expect that he will announce within the next 60 days his successor and the ‘new President & CEO’ of the Jays… and his name is… Paul Beeston!
MW: That wouldn’t be Beeston being true to his word. He’s said at every opportunity that he has no interest in the full-time gig.
- Shelly F.The firing of JP was long overdo although I do believe he has done a lot of positive things I think his time had passed. I think the end of last season would have been the best time as he had done too much damage last year, Stewart, Thomas. It was the time then to bring in a proven guy to finish the job, I only hoped that it is not too late now. There are a couple of great pieces in Lind and Hill, and some capable guys around them, Scutaro, Barajas, Wells a hopefully improving Snider. Fill in a few wholes and try to take a run with a healthy pitching staff. Jansen in the pen and hopefully McGowan, Litch, Purcey and Marcum in the rotation, or go out and sign a capable #2 to make Roy feel better and share the his load. Great job this year, Mike.
MW: Stewart?
- Rick KefferIn response to comment 125, they look at last years record to break a tie. The team with the lowest record from the previous year will get the earlier pick.
Mike,
Do you have any insight into what kind of GM AA will be? Will he more of a stats guy, or stats guy, or a combination of the two?
Thanks in advance, and thanks for a great year!
MW: A combination of a stats guy and a stats guy? I think Alex will use all the information at his disposal, scouting, stats, everything.
- NickIf the Jays do decide to up the payroll and try to play with the big boys in the division, what do you think of the Jays giving Jim Thome a one year deal to DH? I don’t have an issue with an outfield of Lind, Wells, Snider with Bautista as #4. That would give them the feared bat for the middle of the order.
MW: I like Thome a lot.
- cURTISOK Mike since you are being a bit more reasonable I have to make a confession.
I have turned on Cito.
It started with a game in July I think. I don’t remember all the details but he pinch hit for Chavez with Barajas and then bunted Barajas to second as if he forgot he couldn’t pinch run for Barajas.
Then his refusal to play Ruiz and justifying it by saying theres a reason he’s spent all that time in the minors.
Not starting Wells when he had a 10 game hit streak. Not starting Rolen when he had a 20 odd game hit streak.
Anyway I used to love Cito, but he is completely done.
I’d like to see the Jays get young and hire Bob Melvin next year.
- Prokopec