1:15 PM Eastern
In a manner of speaking, that is.
Ken Rosenthal’s story on foxsports.com and Shi Davidi’s more-detailed article (http://www.fan590.com/news/sports/more.jsp?content=s023971627) both told the tale of the Blue Jays’ mutinous feelings towards their skipper.
It’s all true.
I couldn’t do anything with the story because no one would agree to go on the record with me, but never in the time that I’ve been covering this team have I seen clubhouse discontent like this. During the last homestand, I spoke to over a dozen people on the team, several of whom called me over in hushed tones to talk about their frustration with the skipper.
I’m not going to name any names, because nobody wanted to go on the record, but it’s widespread across the entire ballclub. Pitchers and position players, high-profile, mid-profile and low-profile. Cito Gaston has completely lost the clubhouse.
How did this happen? The biggest complaint was Gaston’s overwhelming negativity, which really surprised me. I had always thought that Cito’s greatest strength was his ability to get guys excited about playing for him. I thought that he knew how to massage egos, how to get everyone on the same page and how to get his players to accept their role happily. Many times I’ve said that I thought Cito was baseball’s best manager from the end of one game to the beginning of the next - meaning that the positive things he did in the clubhouse outweighed the questionable things he did on the field. That’s certainly not the case anymore.
I’m told that he actually said to his players that there wasn’t a single good player on the team.
The on-field stuff didn’t help, either. Refusing to move Alex Rios and Vernon Wells out of the 3-4 holes for half the season when they were obviously struggling, pitching Jesse Carlson as though he had a bionic arm, platooning Travis Snider and Lyle Overbay with Jose Bautista and Kevin Millar but almost never pinch-hitting when the opposition brought in an opposite-handed pitcher, ignoring Randy Ruiz. All that and more.
I have pointed out things about which I have disagreed with Cito on a regular basis this season, and there’s been a lot of fuel for that fire. So much so that I’ve been accused of being far too hard on him. Look, the truth is that tactically, Cito is a laissez-faire guy on offense. Put nine guys in the line-up and leave them there. It worked for him from 1989-1993 and it worked for the last 2/3 of last season and the first third of this season, but even early this year, there were head-shaking missteps.
I know that, to some, Cito Gaston walks on water and that the fact that he managed the team to two World Series titles means that he can do no wrong, but he’s not the right manager for this team and the players know it.
And yet, even with all this, the Blue Jays are going to hit and possibly exceed the win total that was predicted for them in Las Vegas at the beginning of this season (I think it was 75 or 76).
Who is at fault most for this disappointing season? Without question, it’s the players. Some of them shouldn’t have been in the majors and performed admirably under the circumstances, some should have performed far better than they did and have no excuses. Of course, some far outperformed expectations or were as great as we’re used to them being. Others, though, may well have flourished with a different hand guiding them.
Does this team make the playoffs if Cito Gaston isn’t the manager? Not even a little.
Did Cito Gaston consistently put the right players in the right spots to give them the best chance to succeed on a regular basis? No. That’s the main reason he lost the clubhouse and that’s the main reason the Jays would be best-suited to bring someone else in to run the show next season.
Will it happen? I don’t know. Some of it depends on how big this story gets and on who, if anyone, will be willing to go on the record to talk about what’s gone on. One would think that a new President would bring in a new General Manager who would then bring in his own Manager, but when the skipper is someone of the stature of Cito Gaston, that can be tough to do. J.P. Ricciardi alienated a lot of people right from the get-go with some of the moves he made - would a new G.M. risk doing the same thing by firing Cito as one of his first moves?
The best thing that could come of all this would be for Cito to say “If they don’t want me, they can find someone else and see if he can do better” and retire to a cushy job as an assistant to the President and community ambassador. He’s well-loved in this city, for good reason, and nothing will change that.
I won’t blame Cito one bit if his answer to these stories is to completely dismiss them because no one has put his name to any comments, but he has to know what the situation is in that clubhouse, and it’s toxic. When it gets to the point that the players are actually joking about the moves that the manager is making, you’ve got a major issue on your hands.
Oh - here’s Wednesday night’s edition of The JaysTalk, for your listening pleasure:
Rational, reasonable comments are always welcome, I’ll get to them during the game tonight.
Click here to subscribe to Wilner's blog
Hi Mike. Are you at liberty to share which managerial moves generated laughs in the clubhouse?
MW: Nope.
- ZackThanks Mike for an excellent analysis of what is happening. I will always beleive you more than a distant US basbeball “expert”.
Even though he had a good series in Boston this week, when I saw Millar playing 3B I was shocked. That’s when Cito put on the leather jacket and waterskiis for me. (too obscure ? think Fonzie people)
I love Cito and think it was a brilliant move to bring him in last year. I have turned now and I do hope the scenario you described where Cito steps back to an ambassador role transipres here. He will always be much loved here in Toronto and I sure hope he knows it.
- RezHI MIKE,
I AGREE THAT A NEW GM RISKS ALIENATING MUCH OF HIS FUTURE STAFF BY BEING PUT IN THE POSITION TO DROP THE HATCHET ON KEY PERSONEL. I’M CERTAIN THAT PAUL BEESTON WILL DO ALL THE REQUIRED HOUSE CLEANING. CITO IS A PROUD MAN AND I’M CONFIDENT HE WILL MOVE ASIDE VOLUNTARILY. HOPEFULLY HE WILL REMAIN IN THE ORGANIZATION IN SOME NON-TRIVIAL CAPACITY.
DO YOU FEEL THE ORGANIZATION WILL BRING IN AN ESTABLISHED MANAGEMENT TEAM OR GO THE MAPLE LEAFS JFJ ROUTE?
THANKS FOR ANOTHER INSIGHTFUL AND ENTERTAINING YEAR OF JAYSTALK.
MW: I’m honestly not sure. I’d be happy if the new GM was Tony LaCava and the new manager was Brian Butterfield, but I think you need an established President in order to do that.
- BARRYMike,
I just wanted to say I listen to your show everyday, and you do excellent work, and 99% of the times you are correct in your assessments. I would give you 100% but no one is perfect. In regards to this story, it was not far fetched. I like Cito, have nothing against him, but perhaps he is not suited for this team. Anyone who actually paid any attention to the moves, rosters, and the game play of the Blue Jays this season would know that something was a foot in regards to the morale of the team. Certain things that stood out to me were the sending down of Travis Snyder to AAA and the fact that Overbay did not play everyday. Overbay is unquestionably one of the best fielding first basemen in the game, and he is platooned with Kevin Millar?? Travis Snyder barely struck out enough to adjust to pitches before he was sent down to AAA. Randy Ruiz has been warming the bench for most of September. John Macdonald ha splayed all but 70 games and half was probably as a pinch runner. I will end by saying I’m not the manager, and may not have any experiencing managing a major league baseball team, but it does not take one to figure out that the players were not all jolly by how the team played, or should I say was coached to play.
Regards,
Carlton
MW: In my mind, you don’t go from 27-14 to 39-69 unless there’s something going on.
- CarltonMike, then this poses a delicate issue.
Cito made questionable moves regarding bullpen use, substitutions, playing Millar as often as he has, not playing Ruiz, not playing Snider more regularly, etc. If the Blue Jays brass could not pick up on how ridiculous some of these decisions turned out to be, then they should be canned as well. I think, with regards to the players, they’re as disappointed in the organization as they are in the manager, and since they see Cito every day, he’s an easy scapegoat. Obviously, you can’t release certain details, but I would expect this to be the case. It’s a lot harder to blame the guy who signed you or traded for you and then guys above him who gave the green light. This organization is in complete and utter disarray and restructuring from the top is what is needed.
MW: I don’t think it’s a matter of “we can’t play for Cito, but J.P. is awesome.” Never was it presented to me as one vs. the other and in fact, no one ever even mentioned Ricciardi to me. It has nothing to do with the organization and nothing to do with the guys in the room not liking each other.
- KLthe article says gaston gave them oppurtuniites to perform.
how does this apply to randy ruiz
MW: Hey, Cito gave him 100 at-bats! Yeah, you’re right - I don’t get that one.
- TheSunkenZealotGreat job reporting on this story Mr. Wilner. When I was driving in my car this morning I was shocked to hear the update. I would not have guessed this in a thousand years. I really appreciate the unbiased opinion that you have presented in this peace and the facts that you use to support it. You did not rip into Cito unnecessarily or without cause. Thanks Mike and keep up the good work.
MW: Thanks.
- lylepetersenMike,
I do not think you were too hard on Cito this year. A lot of his moves were head scratchers. You’ve mentioned to the loyalty to Kevin Millar. There were times that he should have pinch hit for John MacDonald and on, and on.
That being said, I get so riled up when I hear million dollar athletes complain because the manager is too hard on them, or is too negative. Players are well compensated.They should suck it up and do your job and make sure that they look in the mirror at their failings. Also, I understand that no athlete wants to label themselves as a manager killer, or a malcontent, but come on - show some cashews and instead of all of this anomynity.
MW: It’s unfortunate that it has remained anonymous, but I can understand why (before today).
- Steve-O from WaterdownI agree with some of the points you made about Cito Gaston..Some of his criticisms are warranted..However, he was the manager that most people wanted to run this team in the short term and after his record of 51-37 in 2008, his contract was inevitable..
I did some research and found something interesting about Cito’s 2nd term in Toronto..His record as manager over 162 games is 91-71..That would put the Jays right there with Boston for the wild card spot..Should we all dismiss this and just judge him over the last few months of the season?..If we are going to jump all over him for his shortcomings then why not praise him for the good things he did?..
Last year with Burnett,Litch and Marcum following Haladay, the Jays allowed 610 runs with and ERA of 3.42..This season with a few games left they have allowed 747 and an ERA of 4.40..Can you blame the manager for the state of the Jays pitching?..
This is Riccardi’s mess not the manager’s..Ghandi himself couldn’t have managed this team better..Why don’t I ever see an extended article of yours about the lousy job the GM did with this team?..Yea lets just blame the manager..Its his fault Vernon Wells was handed out this contract and I guess he had a part in the B.J Ryan mess as well..Or maybe we can blame “non baseball guy” Godfey or payroll or Gord Ash or bad luck or the weather or uncle Bob something other then the GM..
The Jays as a team have hit 203 HR with 8 players over 10HR on their roster..If they could have hit with RISP or had some kind of pitching this year they may have done more..
Maybe Cito decided to go with rookie pitching this year..We all knew this year would be a struggle..Its not all Cito’s fault..
MW: Of course it’s not all Cito’s fault - it’s not even MOSTLY his fault, which I said in the very post on which you’re commenting. It’s true that the Jays’ record over the first 162 games this time around was terrific - but why should we base our assessment on that and not on the four previous years he managed?
- ray bHey Mike,
Agreed. II always think it’s the little things that really start to get to people in any relationship (ask my fiance!), and the constant on field missteps would be enough to drive anyone batty over the course of a long year and a half. It’s the little things like this (in my opinion, anyway) that have led to the Jays abysmal record in one-run games. Now do I think that the perfect game manager would have substantially improved that record? No, probably not. But, it would have given the appearance at least that he was into the game and trying as hard a the players to win.
Just one opinion, from someone on the absolute outside.
If nothing, should make for an interesting off-season.
(Also, I didn’t know it was possible to make the playoffs just a little… why havent they been shooting for that? :) )
- Kevin A.The most incredible thing that I’ve heard today was Ricciardi talking to Mike Hogan this morning.
Apparently they were going to chat anyway but then with the Rosenthal story coming out this morning you would have thought maybe it would be delayed. But some credit to Ricciardi again for going ahead with it. Chances are if he didn’t do the interview today he would never do it because he’ll be reading his severance package on Monday.
Anyway, Ricciardi seemed totally delusional about the situation. “Cito Gaston is our manager” was one comment, stating firmly that Cito would be the manager next season. Again, all of his thoughts likely mean little, since he (J.P.) will likely be gone so maybe he did the interview pretty much knowing that anything he said would be moot.
But the very idea of the G.M. reaffirming his confidence in Gaston, in the face of what seems like a majority of his team wanting the manager gone, seems to portray him as being totally out of touch with what just may be causing his team to underachieve. How in the world can you go ahead at this point with Cito Gaston managing this team next year - unless you start with a whole new group of players. The absurdity of it is beyond comprehension. Sure, he has to make it LOOK like he supports his manager, but I think he should have taken more of a “we’ll have to see what the problems are” approach.
Now I’m listening to Jack Armstrong saying that it is possible, but very hard to repair a fractured locker room. He emphasized that the manager has to be able to work hard to uncover and relate to the players concerns and then take action to resolve the situation. Does Cito Gaston really seem like someone who is going to bend on anything? Do you think he could actually learn to be a different manager after all these years?
I don’t believe for an instant that he is anything but a touch of 90’s nostalgia. His 1992 and 1993 teams learned how to play under real major league managers like Sparky Anderson, Tom Kelly, Davey Johnson, Tony LaRussa, etc. He never was on a par with those guys but he at least had some respect before the debacle this season. He looked out of touch with Millar and Bautista prominently in the line up while younger (and better) players sit and he looked generally complacent with his strategic management of games. Now he just looks like a sad old fool.
I remember the Expos limping to a last place finish in 1991 when part of Olympic Stadium fell apart and they ended up playing all the home games on the road for the last two or three weeks of the season. It was a general down season that would turn around by 1994. To me the end of this season is much like that 1991 Expos season. It’s like a bottoming-out but we should use that Expos team as a source of optimism.
There may be no way to go but up. Ricciardi and Gaston need to be gone by this time next week.
And thanks for setting that host straight yesterday who told everyone it was better when Ted Rogers was alive because he was a huge baseball fan. McCown has made no bones about saying that Ted Rogers didn’t know a bat from a ball. It’s unfortunate that a lot of the listeners know more about some sports than the hosts.
MW: I couldn’t believe a lot of what was coming out of Ricciardi’s mouth this morning. My thought, like yours, is that he pretty much knows he’s on the way out and didn’t want to bury himself further by tearing into a guy who is still a local icon.
- Rob MWell isn’t this interesting. You know the biggest thing the Jays can do for themselves is air everything out for the fans when the fans are paying attention and that is this weekend. This needs to be dealt with, so does the Presidency, GM and ultimately the Jays need to air out the plan. They need to let the management go and begin to piece it all together this weekend. Otherwise you risk fans walking away with this situation as the last thing they remember before a long Leafs season. This looks more and more like the fan disconnect of the 1994 strike. The clock is winding down, the signal weakening on the connection and it could be years before people even think of the Jays again. Fix the connection fast, strengthen it and move on putting 2009 in the books as a great oops in the history of the Jays. the best way to start, aannounce that the Jays are going back to the uniforms we say on the 92/93 weekend.
MW: I don’t think that’s the best way to start.
- Chris Bakermichael,
- darrell bishopthis is going to be some weekend for the skipper & the players to endure don’t you think? the potential backlash from this story for all involved has got the potential to move the leafs to the 2nd page of the sports section i’m thinking. well maybe not but close. let’s wait & see. should be a most interesting weekend indeed.
what a way to finish the season. the hottest team in all of mlb actually despises their manager as they play this out. kind of surprising don’t you think? usually seems that when this kind of thing manifests itself within a pro sports team, they ain’t running the table in wins to finish the campaign. very odd.
and you know michael, you really have to wonder what
j.p.’s take on all of this is cause’ let’s face it. this probably wasn’t his hire when cito got the call when it gets right down to it. the talk at the time was i think was godfrey, beeston i can’t remember to be honest.
and the talk of some of the coaching staff is interesting indeed.
certainly the arnsbergs, butterfields & whomever else stayed on from the previous regime have to be in constant conversation with j.p. & vise versa on things cito has been doing & not doing as a manager.
gotta believe alot of rolled eyes & shaking of the heads has been going on as time has passed on within that nucleus
observing his game in game out strategies.
hate to say it but pretty sure j.p. has been ultimately defenseless in doing anything about it don’t you think?
especially when thought of as a guy that (& sometimes accused of) as being overly in tune with keeping extremely close contact with his manager & how he runs the ball club day to day at the very least.
i’m thinking he’s been having some serious conniptions this yr. upstairs watching the millar show & all the other managerial oddities etc… all yr.
just a speculation on my part is all…..
but can’t be far off on that one i’m quite sure.
enjoy the weekend finale my friend. should be at least journastically all encompassing anyway…
Cito was not, is not, and can’t be the right manager of this team and its makeup of players. His sense of tactical baseball is and always has been limited. Go back and look at the championship years and see why the team won despite Cito not because of Cito.
- ErrolCito has lost not only his clubhouse but also fans….especially this fan. For a long time I have felt that his handling of Overbay and Snider was very negative for both players. Let’s hope he does the right thing and steps down!!!
- AlMike,
Wow, what a huge story! It’s not terribly surprising though because a lot of his moves (especially lately) had me thinking “what the…” and I don’t profess to have anything more than a passing knowledge of baseball. I don’t know if you can shed any light on this but is Cito the reason that Rolen asked to be traded?
MW: I never heard a thing about that.
- Rob TheriaultMike, kudos for the honesty and frankness of your article. I don’t really blame the players for not coming forward. It would be suicidal for their career. I’ll take back my comments regarding you being a BlueJay apologist. I always thought that the Jays won in spite of Gaston in 92 and 93. As a lifelong RedSox fan who lives in this area, I was appalled by Gaston’s managerial skills and felt vindicated when no other team hired him after Toronto fired him. All this does, is to confirm by beliefs of the past 20 years. I thought that he was a ‘poor’ manager early on. Hopefully the people at the top will clean house and hire a top flight President, GM and Manager. This franchise is at a crisis point. It will be interesting to see what develops. Although I cheer for another team, I do have a soft spot in my heart for the Jays. It would be sad to see them in economic peril, with the possibility of relocation.
- BrianWhat will be the players excuse next season when they miss the playoffs again?
MW: I don’t see any of this as excuse-making.
- CraigHey Mike,
I discovered your blog earlier this summer and I’ve been hooked! It’s my first time posting up a comment so I guess you can say that I’m “coming out of the closet” in terms of commenting. I think you’re doing a great job and I really appreciate the time and effort you’ve put into all the comments and ‘bloggage’.
With all that’s been going on today about the tension in the clubhouse, I felt that I should comment. I usually avoid reading Richard Griffin’s blog since I often feel a looming sense of disdain. I couldn’t resist this time so I skimmed through what he wrote and I scrolled down to check out the comments. I really can’t (well, maybe I can) believe how some people blaming J.P. Ricciardi for causing the strife and even considered that he leaked it to the press. Words escape me as to how one can come up with that conclusion. It really befuddles me.
I agree with you on Cito’s mind-boggling decisions and I’ve always wondered what the players thought. I guess I know now.
Once again, thanks for all the effort in which you’ve put and I look forward to reading more of your posts throughout the winter! =)
MW: Thanks, and welcome aboard! Now go back and read the archives.
- LizWhen I was in Vegas in March the over/under was 78.5. I was pretty happy with that bet in May….
MW: Oops.
- ChrisHi Mike,
First I wanted to say that you’re half the reason I’m still follow the Jays this JP-tenureship. If ownership brought in front office people who are willing try and pay extra for guys like AJ Burnett to boost ticket sales, tell them to give you a raise instead. I’d send this in an email to your boss but sadly his/her email isn’t published.
My question is regarding the future front office people. I’m sick of hearing about JP and Vernon Wells and the players. My problem, like most fans, is ownership and direction, especially over the last three stagnant years. I was wondering if there are any plans to go out and get proven leadership like the Leafs and Raptors did with Burke and Colangelo, respectively. If this were the plan, who do you think would be likely candidates? Who do you think would be the best candidates?
MW: I’ll forward your comment to my boss - thanks! I could use an agent, if you’re interested. Your question is a good one, and the answer, I think, is none other than Pat Gillick. He’s the premier guy, the star candidate. It’s too bad he’s not interested.
- SeanInteresting Wilner. As Herman Moore once said, “If you’re big enough to say something, then put your name on it.”. I love the fact that all of the sources are speaking on anonymity. Something here really stinks, and I’m more inclined to take Griff’s position and suggest that J.P. has his hand in here. There is no question that J.P. is on his way out and one of his only ways to secure another job in MLB is in vein attempts to sabotage the current manager.
I don’t disagree that Cito could have and should have done things differently at times. But the same argument that you could have for him not playing Ruiz or playing Millar too much, can also be used the other way by saying he gave Scutaro and Lind opportunities that were never presented to them before and they flourished. At the end of the day, it’s up to the players to perform and they did not. Leading the charge of course is Vernon Wells, whose albatross of a contract (the worse in Bluejay history) will bring this club from years to come. When push comes to shove, I’m more inclined to give a two-time World Series champion the benefit of the doubt then a bunch of millionaire cry baby ball players who have never won anything.
MW: Your comments are consistently negative, as are Griff’s, so I’m not at all surprised you’d buy in to whatever he’s selling. I also know that no matter what I say, you’re not going to believe it. So I won’t bother trying to explain to you that you’re wrong.
- BobbyI hope for his own sake that Cito resigns because this is going to get ugly.He really has to go now.He is not the right kind of manager for this type of team.He could no doubt manage the Yankees to a pennant and maybe one or two other teams but he just makes a team like the jays worse with his lame in game moves.The between game problems are a surprise to me as well.
- PaulHey Mike,
I’ve been very encouraged by your talk of a possible payroll boost and the guys you would like to bring in if it was up to you. I wonder if the recent layoffs make you think a payroll increase is less likely? I also wondered who you thought would come in for Cito? Does Butter have a shot?
Thanks
MW: Asked and answered.
- Jeff (from Germany)Geez Mike was your anti-spam word “rant!!!” or what???
I’m glad that you are finally venting about Cito. Certainly, his on-field performance and making non-decisions has been awful at times. There’s probably something quite personal going on with Ruiz and Cito… we shall see. Cito waits until it is far too late to make any pinch hitting and pitching changes.
But I was really really surprised to hear his negativity.
Still the Jays as a whole had some great surprises (Scutaro / Hill / Lind / Ruiz) and some great disappointments (BJ Ryan / Downs / Wells / Rios) all of which added up to a pretty mediocre year. Clearly the 0-9 road trip in May and the anemic hitting during the summer (up until Labour Day) didn’t help.
Still, with a hitting Rios and Wells, and shutting the door with a knock out of Downs and BJ Ryan, the Jays probably would have won more than enough games (they would need about 13 more wins assuming they finish with 77) to become a wild card contender at least, even with Cito not making the right decisions. Rolen probably would have stayed with the club through the season. Then you would have had a heck of an order… but it was not meant to be.
How many more games would the Jays would have won had Cito made the right decisions? Hindsight is 20/20, but what are the obvious ones?
MW: There’s no answer to that question, because even if Cito had made the moves we all thought were correct at the time, there’s no way to know that they would have worked. And there have been times when Cito has made what appeared to be the wrong move, but it has worked.
- TimWhoa. Is this rock bottom for this franchise?
MW: Another one?
- Flaming MoeMW: Ricciardi is only Public Enemy #1 to the fans in Toronto, not to any baseball people who don’t have their own agenda.
Oh really? So those guys at SI etc who pointed out just how badly Ricciardi has done here ‘have their own agenda’? That would be news to them and news to me. You may be surprised to hear this, but Ricciardi’s performance has garnered some attention in the US media, none of it complimentary.
MW: It’s funny, people don’t seem to realize that free agents sign in Baltimore, Kansas City and Pittsburgh pretty much every year.
Sure they do. But they may not be the free agents you might wish to sign if you wanted to take a run at a play-off spot. You want a good free agent, that good free agent is likely to have more than one suitor. He’ll choose based on money or team prospects or whatever. He’s not likely to give in to a quixotic impulse to go to a foreign team in free-fall and try and help them regain their customary 3rd place position in the AL East.
MW: 1 - That SI column had holes big enough through which one could drive a truck. Ricciardi will have no trouble at all finding a front-office job should he want one once the axe comes a-swinging. 2 - They may not be the biggest or the baddest, but you’ll get some good ones if you play it right.
- isabella reyesMike… Having watched sports in great detail for the better part of 40 years, you take certain aspects of games at par and don’t give too much thought to it. But Leaf’s GM Brian Burke the other day stated something very general and basic that I’d never considered. He said that pitchers and goalies are on audition every night they’re out there and they’re the guys who get the W or L after the game..Adam Lind doesn’t get the win for his 3 homers nor does Johnny Mac for his defensive wizardry. Or Sidney Crosby doesn’t get the W if he scores 4 goals, but Marc-Andre Fleury does even if he gives up soft goals..Mike, in your profession you must hear all the sports’ adages and cliches, but I’m wondering if you’ve heard Burke’s analogy before and do you agree with it or see what he’s getting at?
MW: I see what he’s getting at - it’s a well-worn sports cliche, I’m surprised you haven’t come across it before.
- chris m.HI MIke: There were times that I thought Cito was driven. He played Scutaro, never never playing Macdonald, unless forced to do so. Is that fair to Scutaro who perhaps needed a day off? Is that fair to the uncomplaining Macdonald?
He just looked sort of, that he was going to make the team work, and had little patience.
As if, he was the manager of the winning team years ago, and nothing else would do.
MW: Driven how?
- BarbMichael,
I just hope if a new president brings in his own crew it won’t mean the loss of Arnsburg or Butterfield. Both have been great.
MW: That they have.
- Uncle BenWow… I always wondered how he could have all the players in the clubhouse loving him when he would do things like go 3 months using a great guy like John McDonald exclusively as a pinch runner. Cito always seemed to nail his bench guys to the bench so while his ‘regulars’ may have liked his style, those guys with nothing better to do than gripe to each other would have a lot of time to sit and talk. Same with the guys buried in Cito’s bullpen doghouse.
And if I’m Jesse Carlson, do I really want to stay in after getting the two LH batters out and face Alex Rodriguez? Same with Janssen being left in to face big LH bats because Cito likes ‘guys who can get out both LH and RH hitters’. Well yeah! Everyone can get out most (i.e. more than half) of the batters they face from either side of the plate, but giving up a .375 average and .750 Slg with the platoon disadvantage is still not a good idea.
Cito’s managing style was there for all to see back in the glory years but a guy like Paul Molitor was still a good hitter even when facing a RH. I don’t think many of the players on this team can say the same so its the managers job to put them in positions where they can succeed.
If he’s not doing that, AND the players don’t like him, why in the world is he managing a major league team that needs every little scrap of an advantage they can get when facing superior lineups in the AL east. Being a nice guy isn’t good enough qualifactions to earn and keep this job. If so, lots of people would be qualified. Well not too many people from this blogeroo, but you know what i mean… ;)
- MontgomeryWithout naming names can you answer:
A) Does this “mutiny” have a leader, one or two players who are really pushing this thing forward?
B) Does this “mutiny” extend to other coaches or is this only on Cito?
C) Did they feel this way at any point last season?
D) Do they need to act on this if the Jays hope to attract any decent FAs?
Also, while you probably can’t comment on this, it seems pretty safe to say that this influenced Rolen’s departure. I also wonder if the “Barajas isn’t coming back” comments figure in here at all and you didn’t mention it, but the handling of Accardo.
MW: A - I think so, but I’m honestly not sure. B - I can’t answer that. C - Not as far as I know, but maybe it just hadn’t festered enough for anyone to come to me with it. D - I don’t think it has anything to do with that. I wonder how much the Barajas comment factored in, I don’t know how much, if anything, this had to do with Rolen wanting out.
- ColinHi Mike,
I read your posts about possible off-season moves, and they look pretty good.
But…
I believe that the Jays will attempt to re-tool in a different fashion, and I think the following could be the direction they follow:
1) Trade Doc, for mainly major league-ready players (one established young starter, a top young 1B/OF/slugger type and another one or two top AAA talents, hopefully a SS included)
2) Resign Scutaro, J Mac and Rod Barajas
3) OPTIONAL: Sign big DH bat
4) find a new manager
The 25 man, in batting/rotation order:
Scutaro
Overbay
Hill
Lind
Wells
Snider
New RF
Encarnacion
Barajas
New DH/Ruiz
Chavez/Phillips
J Mac
Bautista
Romero
Marcum
New SP
Rzep
Cecil
Downs
Frasor
Accardo-Carlson
Tallet
Richmond-Roenicke
Camp
League
(with McGowan, Litsch, Purcey, Stewart, Collins, Carlson, Hayhurst, Janssen, Inglett, Dopirak waiting in AAA)
Now, I realize that this option leaves much to be desired in terms of SP and offense, but it would be cheap, and with the current financial situation (layoffs) in mind, could be what we fans end up getting.
I would expect the new RF to be an emerging superstar, with top offensive and defensive skills, and the new SP would have to be a nice #3 at least.
I would love to see the Jays go up to $100MM+, but I doubt it will happen.
This team could win 85, and maybe 95 games with a little luck, and only cost around $75-80MM.
Do you see this as something that could happen and (or) work…
MW: I don’t. If they trade Halladay, then Scutaro and Barajas won’t be back - they’ll take the three draft picks.
- andy mcThis is disturbing to me, if this is true, I am blown away,I thought everybody like Cito he was jesus in waiting, I guess not after Ken wrote the story, Holly Crap whats gone wrong? Well after spending boats load of money on tickets this year I have one soloution Blow it up mangement, come monday next week there better be a new president, gm ,coach, but let me say I don,t think the gm should get axed he did a good job, but he has to go to due to the nature of everything
- craig mooreOne more point on my soapbox,
JP could not fire Cito even if he wanted to, Cito Paul,s man we all know it, does anyone agree
MW: It’s true - JP couldn’t fire Cito even if he wanted to.
- craig mooreMichael,
I know you weren’t a fan of Scott Rolen personally, but do you know how he felt about Cito as a manager?
MW: No, I don’t.
- Uncle BenMike…I sent you the following e-mail this morning, and you sort of addressed it in your blog, but I still don’t understand why Rosenthal can run with it and you can’t when the story is happening right in your wheelhouse…
As you may know from a previous e-mail I sent you, I admire and enjoy your work. However, I have to say that your segment on the morning show this morning threw me for a loop. Perhaps what I am missing is an understanding of the role of a day-to-day ‘reporter’ that follows a particular team. What surprised me is this: you are with and around and focused on the Blue Jays on a daily basis. This morning we learn that a Fox News reporter has revealed that there is significant dissension amongst the Blue Jays about Cito Gaston, which from a baseball and Blue Jay perspective is a fairly major story. You are asked about it on the morning show and basically you say, “oh yes, I have known about this for weeks because several people in Blue Jay uniforms have told me so.” My question is why you would have not said something on the air about this over the past few weeks as you learned about it? Why does it take a U.S. based reporter to reveal it and only then cause you to acknowledge it on the air?
MW: I answered that question both in this post and when I was on with Don and Gord this morning. No one would say anything on the record and I’m not going to go with a story like this based on anonymous sources. Rosenthal chose to do so, and when I’m asked to react to it, I can’t sit there and sound all surprised when I know what was going on. Had I been able to get someone on the record, I’d have broken it.
- Tom DanielOK…..I accept that you were in a very tough position and it’s way too easy for someone like me to Monday morning quarterback. Keep up the great work….despite my remarks about this particular situation I do genuinely enjoy listening to you.
MW: Thanks.
- Tom DanielDriven you say? Well it’s hard to describe what I mean. But there’s something about him, that’s a bit off. But something of his own agenda.
Maybe that only playoff contention is enough?
Or a “closed” personality?
MW: I don’t know about that.
- BarbJust wondering Mike,
Who in the world told this collection of Blue Jays players that any of them had the right/baseball knowledge to “jok[e] about the moves the manager is making?” Not one of them has two world series rings, or even one.
Were these boys, they surely aren’t men, raised with extravagent praise to keep them from pissing on the wall? More than a few of them have been pissing on the wall for major portions of the season; others simply don’t belong in the majors. Do they expect to be praised for their performance? Do they think they’re cool for playing like bums and, at the same time, laughing at how stupid the coach is?
No, this situation cannot be allowed to continue and Cito will have to sacrificed to the declassee behaviour of a collection of mental midgets.
I have lost all respect for this organization from ownership on down. This is simply disgusting.
MW: I couldn’t disagree with you more. Yes, Cito managed two World Series winning teams. Since then, he managed four absolutely brutal teams from 1994-97, two of which were expected to do great things. This team has been pretty bad, too. How long does Cito get to dine out on the two World Series (on the field, that is. Off the field, he should be dining out on them forever.)?
- KenInteresting that as the worst GM in baseball is on his way out, his media contact Ken Rosenthal all of a sudden come up with information about a problem with someone else in the organization.
MW: I don’t think the worst GM in baseball is on his way out.
- Ricky RomeroLots of teams that are losing go through these so called bumps..Its difficult to believe this rumor when the Jays have won 9 of their last 10..
Rosenthal is an American covering American teams..Funny, I don’t see his butt sitting in the seats..
So who are these players?..I’m sure it isn’t Lind or Hill..Hey maybe its Romero..Scutaro must be miffed after having such a bad season..
Could it be some of the pitchers?..I’m sure Frasor and Carlson aren’t happy..I mean they are pitching so little these days..All it takes are a few disgruntled players and you have a big fiasco..It will be interesting how this turns out..After all, you can’t keep 20 something millionaires happy..
Hillenbrand was sent to his sinking ship and Ryan was sent to the Iowa Cubs who sent him and his 85MPH fastball to his cushy retirement package courtesy of your best friend J.P Riccardi..
We’ll see if its the manager who gets turfed or the selfish big mouthed individuals who get it good..
I’m no big fan of Gaston but I think he deserves a little latitude considering his record during the majority of his 2nd term..
Gibbons got the backing from his manager hence the turfing of Captain Hillenbrand..
MW: Hillenbrand was one guy - this is 25. I’m amazed that you’re throwing around names that you’re sure it isn’t.
- ray bSounds like the players really wanted this story out with at least yourself, Rosenthal and Shi Davidi noting that they had players speak to them about this issue recently.
Would you agree that there are players who wanted this story out but only anonymously? Why would it be beneficial to do it that way and not by going to Beeston or Gaston?
MW: Did Rosenthal say he actually spoke to any players? I’m not sure he did. There’s no reference to him speaking to any players in his story. I’m sure that there are players who wanted this story out but who would prefer to remain anonymous, yes. They are going to go to Beeston, as Shi mentioned in his story.
- Chrisif cito gave randy ruiz 100 AB
and he hit ( was it 9 or 8 HR), then in a 300 AB season he hits 27 or 24.
thats pretty damn good.
MW: It is, though you can’t necessarily extrapolate B from A. And hitters get closer to 600 at-bats in a full season of action.
- TheSunkenZealotMW: Did Rosenthal say he actually spoke to any players? I’m not sure he did. There’s no reference to him speaking to any players in his story
You are correct, Rosenthal used the term “according to multiple major-league sources”.
I had assumed that meant players, but that could also refer to front office or coaches. Richard Griffin, on his blog, has already stated that he believes JP is the source…so it is possible that there were no players speaking to Rosenthal at all.
If that is the case, then I would be quite concerned that non-player personnel are leaking such an infammatory story. It speaks to a much larger disfunction within the organization than just what is going on with Cito. Especially if there is multiple major league sources that are non-players.
- ChrisAs a long time Jays fan and supporter of Cito I was shocked as I heard the news this morning. How could this be true? I did queston a lot of Cito’s managerial decisions this year (and last). For example not using Johnny Mac in the field, using him as a pinch runner, seeing Millar play and Overbay sit, seeing Ruiz sit etc etc etc. But then I also wondered why he had never had another managerial position after the strange exit he had back in 1997? Perhaps there is something that those of us not in the loop have not known until now. It’s sad but if all of this is true and it sure seems to be, then I guess Cito should step down or be fired. I think there is a core of great talent here that they should try to keep together. Interesting times in Jays Land indeed!
- RodI don’t know why the players can’t stand up and be men and take accountability for their words. It’ seems so juvenile and underhanded. School yard bully type boys. Run to the media but don’t hush hush….pathetic,
Oh and can Vernon Wells please leave the team now. Cito gave him all year to play the game and he can’t anymore. He states he doesn’t think he can play here next year.(shrug) I have a car waiting if he needs a drive……….
MW: First of all, Wells never said that. And no one ran to the media.
- RileyHi Mike
The Cito situation is just another “fire in the hole” for this shell-shocked organization. Despite the Jays’ good start, how could the season have ended up differently given that they have a part time president and a GM who has clearly worn out his welcome? There is a leadership vacuum at the ownership level. Until that is corrected, this team is going nowhere.
MW: The fact that they have a part-time president and a GM who has worn out his welcome is the reason they fell apart? That’s some pretty twisted logic.
- DavidMike,
How I wish you could share all your “off the record” conversations with us. I was very surprised to see Halladay’s name in Shi Davidi’s article. Not that I am surprised to see his feeling towards Cito, who has all but earned himself the label of “incompetent” among fans and media-types, but if Halladay feels strongly enough to go on the record about his ill-feelings towards Cito’s management then it must be a resentment that truly permeates throughout the clubhouse.
From the beginning of Cito’s reinstatement last summer, this reeked of a PR move trying to capitalize on the glory years Cito helmed 15 years earlier, but I have to admit that I was won over by Cito’s “work” (ie. the Jays production/record) over the rest of last season and first 41 games of this year. I think this year only further exemplifies what became obvious in the last half of the 90s: Cito’s success was a result of the great players he was able to work with - the 92/93 teams are a legend among Canadian baseball fans but they were more a product of the front office than of Gaston’s managerial skills. When the players started to leave and Cito was faced with inexperienced (and even young talented) players, he failed. He waited a decade to get back into the game and it is painfully clear that nothing has changed. He had a good run last year but I think that is more due to the change from Gibbons (who I still feel was shortchanged) than anything Cito brought to the table.
I am very excited (although skeptical) about the comments that Rogers is willing to increase the Jays payroll to an AL East competitive range but they still have many young players with great potential that require a good manager and I think that raising the payroll and keeping Cito at the helm would be a waste. If the Jays go to 100+ million and finish 3rd, we may not see that kind of money from Rogers for another decade.
If Rogers/Beeston does bump up the payroll, is that conditional on a managerial change, especially after an article like this comes out?
If the Jays do go to 100+ (or even 90+) mil, does resigning Halladay become a priority? I think that a move like that would signal their intent to compete, which would seriously interest Halladay - even for a “hometown discount.” 34 mil over 2 years?
I’m sorry this is so long. It’s clearly an issue that has been on my mind for a few months.
Thanks.
MW: Halladay didn’t go on the record with anything but “any concerns that I have will be expressed to the right people.” I think you’re reading WAY too much into that. We won’t know anything about the payroll until a new President is hired.
- RoddyExcellent and fair write-up on what must be a difficult day today, Mike. You were very fair and honest in your assessment of Cito.
I do remember certain comments made by Cito that could be taken as a negative by the players. i.e. when he bat Lind in the 4 spot and after not immediately doing well there, he moved him back to the 3 or 6 spot. Cito commented that Lind may not be suited to hit there just yet. Could be taken as a negative, i don’t know. But, I would hope that Lind would not be among these ‘mutinous’ players today. He has mentioned that Cito has turned his career around.
Yes, Cito has never been much of a tactitian, but I would take his bullpen handling over the way Gibbons did it. There were innings where Gibbons would change pitchers, EVERY batter - infuriating. I guess I’m old school too, in that if a guy just got the first 2 batters out and looked good doing, it, let him finish the inning. That’s old school.
Funny, remember the glowing praise Cito got from his players when he took over last year - how they marvelled at his presence and they couldn’t help but to listen a guy like him. Too bad it went all sour.
Yes, Cito will always be an icon in this city - deservedly, too. Interesting when u listen to the Hall of Fame players who played for him all the winning players this city has had, they all say that he was one of the best managers and man who they’ve played for. From Winfield to Alomar and more. Hall of Famers.
Much more than I can say about the bunch of ’soft’ players who put on the Jersey today.
MW: Please don’t make it about “today’s” players. If the Jays had Hall of Famers right now who could win with a “set the line-up and go” manager, no one would be complaining.
- ed CheeHi Mike. Why couldn’t this release have waited until Monday. If the clubhouse was uncomfortable before this, I’m sure it’s about 100 times more uncomfortable now!!! Unbelievable!!! What a mess!!
MW: Whoever told Rosenthal wanted to make sure it got out as soon as possible.
- jeffMike…
I must say I enjoy reading these posts of fans who “know” that this is JP’s doing to save face and that it’s just a few disgruntled bench players who are upset. This is bigger than that and you know! Fans should understand that you know a lot of the guys who are upset, but aren’t going to risk your journalistic career or the trust of the players to name it to the fans if they don’t want to go on the record.
Guess what…every team has 4-5 guys who hate the manager and are upset about playing time. This is more than that. It would be a non-issue if it wasn’t. Mike isn’t lying here. A bunch of players having good years can see the same bad decisions that we all can. And it pisses off the players who are having great years even more when a manager apparently says there aren’t any good players on this team. It pisses off players when a manager says one of the most well liked guys in Barajas won’t be back next year. It prob bugs the players that a player favourite in John McDonald is used as a pinch runner all year. It probably pisses players off that a guy that is playing as badly as Kevin Millar is in the lineup when he isn’t producing. And I read that Randy Ruiz was only a last minute addition today. Give me a break. And none of us know about Cito’s mood or relationship with the players in the locker room.
J.P. takes a lot of heat here. But all he did was bring back a fan favourite when no one in baseball wanted to touch him. That is it. His only mistake in this mess was possibly bringing back Cito in the first place on a team that wasn’t going to be close to competing.
I wonder if Gibby is having a nice laugh right now.
- DanGREAT “stories” by Ken Rosenthal (& yours too)- reminds me of something you would read in the National Enquirer! It has certainly created a lot of reading material on the net. It is absolutely amazing the tremendous amount of support & admiration there is out there for Cito-on the blogs, from sports writers, former players,fans and the general public. Check out Richard Griffins blog (well written & insightful)there is a comment with your name on it. Made me LOL!!
Just want to make it clear,I am a huge fan of Cito and don’t have any respect for anyone that will not put their name to what they were supposedly quoted as saying. Makes you wonder if there is any truth to it or if it is just fabricated.
MW: You’re free to wonder. As I said before, it’s all true.
- JCRe: comment 42..
Ok no problem..Lets talk about who it could be…
Vernon Wells seems on the fence so lets look at him..In a word, his season has stunk..Maybe he will take a page out of your buddy J.P’s book and make up some kind of excuse for his lousy play..It must be the lack of communication between him and the manager..Its gotta be that..The 20 mil man has no excuses this year so he needs to put up or shut up..
Scott Downs perhaps?..Didn’t Gaston stick up for him when he hurt his leg running the bases in inter league play?..He hasn’t been good enough this year and no communication in the world could make up the fact that the guy is out of shape hence the injuries..
Who else?..B.J Ryan?..Need I say one word about the 85MPH man..
How about you name me one player who has had a real good season this year as the culprit of these rumors..I bet you can’t..Its some bitter player(s) with a nowhere season blaming someone other then himself..Its total B.S..
Rosenthal is blaming his old school approach..Hogwash..There are plenty of older managers in the game today that do it old school..Is Bobby Cox a great communicator?..That guy is as old school as they get and yet he is still in the game..
MW: I’ve already told you that I’m not going to betray any confidences. You’re free to think what you want to think - you’re going to anyway - but you’re speaking on something about which you’re completely clueless.
- ray bMike,
Your frank and direct approach to this issue is so refreshing. I know you’ve hinted at it before, but now that the cat is out of the bag, it is really out of the bag. My question for you: will they be able to put the cat in the bag again? Will we see this frank and direct approach under the next regime?
MW:Frank and direct on whose part?
- ol brucieHi Mike,
As someone who was there when the Jays won the World Series in ‘92 and ‘93, I naturally have a high regard for the players who played during those years and Cito Gaston by extension. This news of the mutiny certainly breaks my heart. While I have slowly grown over the years to see Cito’s shortcomings as a manager (for example I personally would have liked to see him be more conciliatory in his tone when the players asked him for a meeting prior to the game with Baltimore), I am in shock to learn that his clubhouse manner is what eventually drove the players to revolt against him, because the media has always portrayed him as positive in the clubhouse. However, I do not understand nor approve of the manner in which the players aired their concerns. It sounds very ‘high school’ to me, especially the way the protagonists chose to remain anonymous. If the players want to hold Cito accountable for his negativity and want him gone, then the players who are not performing as well as they should also be held accountable, i.e. they should fire themselves and spare us the agony of watching them underperform.
I understand from your comments that the current crisis is not about using Cito as a scapegoat for the team’s subpar performance. You have demonstrated enough evidence that Cito is not the right manager for this team. Other people have commented that the World Series teams won despite of Cito. Furthermore, I can sense from your comments that there is a lot of sensitive (i.e. juicy) information that you have been made aware of but are not at liberty to tell at the moment. I think it would have been better if the Jays didn’t need to air their dirty laundry in public. It does nobody any good to do so. I do not understand why the players didn’t feel comfortable speaking with top management (i.e. Mr. Ricciardi and Mr. Beeston) about the problems with Cito when they were already starting to affect clubhouse morale instead of letting them fester. When you have a problem with your boss, you speak with your boss, or your boss’s boss about it, not the media for heaven’s sake.
You can sense that I sympathize with Cito’s plight. This is because I was in a similar situation a few years ago. I was the equivalent of middle management, kind of what Cito is right now. I had a dysfunctional group of owners/senior management who didn’t care about my staff and their concerns. The frustration on the staff’s part boiled over into a mutiny against me. I took the heat from senior management and the lumps from my staff. Thankfully I did not quit nor was I fired. Those misfits that engineered the mutiny quit on their own or were fired for other problems that they caused. I eventually bought out my bosses and I now own and manage the place where I work. One of my staff who used to hate me (because it turns out she was frustrated at my bosses but took it out on me) became one of my most trusted employees. My staff are happy and so am I.
In my view, the bigger problem we are being faced with right now is the lack of a full time captain of the ship called the Toronto Blue Jays. If there is no direction and stability provided by senior management and ownership, the players who are only human will turn on the nearest target, Cito Gaston in this instance. Cito Gaston is not the main reason why the Jays are not doing well, both on the field and attendance wise. His problems are just a symptom of what ails the Blue Jays. I know I might go against the grain by saying this, but firing Cito is not the solution. The problems have to be fixed starting from the top. And if firing Cito is still the correct solution, so be it, but count me out next year as one of the fans watching the Jays at the Rogers Centre, especially if the mutineers are allowed to stay.
MW: The mutineers will definitely stay - there are far too many of them to ship them all out. Firing Cito isn’t necessarily the solution as far as the letting the inmates run the asylum thing goes, but it is as far as giving the Blue Jays the best chance to win on a consistent basis. None of the players to whom I spoke wanted the story to get public in an anonymous fashion.
- AnthonyHey Mike,
Okay, I’m going to ask you a straight up yes or no question?
Do YOU think Cito Gaston should return next year?
MW: As the manager? No.
- SeanGaston was fired during his first tenure as Jays’ manager for the same things he has masterminded this year; like, playing over-the-hill veterans in favour of young players, misusing the bullpen, bizarre batting line-ups and his apparent in-game… apathy. Why he was hired back when no other organization came calling in the preceding 11 years is beyond me?
And what has Paul Beeston been doing all year besides smoking his cigar and resting his socks-free tootsie? He certainly has done nothing of significance to help his team… namely finding a new president.
And critics wonder why crowds continue to dwindle this season. Easy answer! The fans have no confidence in Jays’ current brass.
The Jays’ need to clean house from Gaston on up. Bringing back the same …. how do I say this nicely? .. people … would set the team back even further.
MW: You have to struggle to call Beeston and Gaston people?
- Kelly PfeifferHi MIKE.. My take on this Cito situation is , Everybody in T.O. Thinks Cito can walk on water because of the 2 rings.. What happened after that .. Do people forget??. It was not great.. There was racial comments made by him in his tenure at the time which I think were verified . I cant figure the guy out.. Never mind the batting order, never mind , slateing Millar in the line up over playing Lind in left and haveing a guy who won the PCL batting champ of the year as the DH.. The 2 go hand in hand.. It is so crazy, it is like Cito is on some body elses payroll.. I know this is a bit of a stretch but I am pissed off. I think what will happen is Cito will be gone HOPEFULLY, and they will fire J.P. because thats what the fans want.. It is really to bad when you look at the whole picture that the fans of T.O.really dont put 2 and 2 together and actually sit back and look at the full picture with what J.P. has done.. If Tony or Alex take over next year as the G.M. and the club as a bit of success ,it will be , thank god they fired J.P… Pretty pathetic when you think about it eh’ Mike.. Remember when Cito took over and he hired Gene as a hitting coach and a couple of days later the JAYS blew out somebody like 14 to 2 and people were blogging you saying what a great hitting coach Gene Tenace is.. Give me a break.. Anyway Mike, I have stuff going on with my opening day line-up .. You are throwing out guys based on a 120 mil. payroll.. I will tell you that I am OK with the quality starter when DOC goes but I think you under-estimate what we got here already.. Whats wrong with giving Encar a shot at third. He did hit 26 dingers in Cinci, and then he broke his wrist and has bounced back since.. I really dont think thier is a ton of stuff you have to do with this club.. Mike your 120 million deal is you are bouncing on toes that are already capable of filling in the order to a 75 per- cent capability.. If I had any say in the matter I would fire Cito and get a manager that doesn’t send his line up in 3 days before the game starts.. I just had to air that out and now all those Blue Jay fans that go to 1 game a year, and dont understand , Chin Music, hit for the cycle, caught lookin’ and so on and so on.. My question Mr. Wilner is I know you down play the fact that the Jays will not fold as far as an organization.. I lived in Montreal and I saw it coming when they were humming and hawing about a new ballpark.. Well we saw what happened there .. This is where Jackie Robinson cut his teeth.. Do you think it can happen in T.O.? Thanks Mike..
MW: I’m not going to discuss the Expos stuff again, I’ve gone over it too many times.
- FLIPPERMike….Certain parts of your duties I’m sure can fall under the heading of “being fun”: The Canada/U.S. game you partook in as broadcaster, meeting players new and old, and many others. But stuff like handling these Cito Gaston grumblings must be a difficult task and I take my hat off to you. Sometimes people tend to forget these players, managers, GM’s et al are human beings, not robots, who are capable of human error as much as the next guy. And Mike, you interview these guys constantly and probably develop a sort of bond with some, but I’ll let you fill in the right description for I don’t know which guys you’re more comfortable with and bond may be the wrong word..But as usual, you handle the situation with class and invoke the golden rule of treating others the way you would like to be treated and keeping any non-complimentary descriptions of Cito (or anyone for that matter) on a baseball level, not personal..Take a bow Mike. I applaud your style!
- chris m.Mike,
Great to hear your reasons why we didn’t get this story from you first but from FOX USA. I was worried.
Cito’s tactical managing skills have always been an issue but we were led to believe he was a fine motivator of men and a players’ manager, especialy re veterns. His tactical skills and headstrong comments in the past cost him mangerial opportunities but being a player’s manager with a bunch of under-achievers who are now blaming him for the bad season is too much.
From the blogs and news reports here are names that have come up and my comments.
Veron:? Cito played him at cleanup for months after he failed miserably when it counted. Cito played him in Sept so that Veron could have respectable stats for the year. This is how Cito is repaid. Disgusting. Trade him and pay anybody half his salary
Overbay: Hit the ball in the gaps and shut up. Trade him
Snyder: Wait until next year and shut up. Trade him
Roy H: Cito had only fine things to say about Roy. He even said the Jays should keep him only if they are serious about a run next year. Isn’t that what everyone believes. I do not believe Roy is involved.
RUIZ: Wait until next year. Keep him.
- CJ SmithMike, one comment that JP made is being completely ignored. That is, shouldn’t family members ( or in your case extended family members)
not air out their families dirty laundry in public
I realize this is sports entertainment & subject to public scrutiny at every level
However, since no player actually had the guts to come out prior to the season’s end, shouldn’t you have waited to at least then to give credence to this This team hasn’t quit yet even though they are out of the race
Doesnt the Manager deserve our support for that? At least until the end of the season Then let the chips fall where they will
SR
MW: So once the story comes out I should ignore it until the end of the season? That doesn’t make any sense to me.
- Steve RowanI’ve had enough of “Managers don’t make much of a difference”. If they don’t then why have a manager at all.
I strongly believe tha a manager is good for +-15 games per season. That’s the difference between making the playoffs or not. I’m not saying tha a good manager can take a terrible team an make it a great team, nor the other way around. But managers can make big difference.
Cito has always been a terrible manager, I’ve voiced this before. Its time for him to go!
I’m not saying another manager would make the jays a contender, but a decent manager would be at least 500, and that’s all you can ask from any team.
MW: Not many expected the Jays to play anywhere near .500 ball this season, so I don’t think you’re on the mark there. I don’t think that a manager can make a 15-game difference to a team. If that were true, there would be more managers who consistently get their teams to overachieve. Or even one.
- KevinMike: First off, great job on this. And, I want to thank you for the Baseball Today show this year in July and August. Please tell me it has already been approved for next year. If not, who can I e-mail to tell them to do it. Not to bring up the past, but did John Gibbons ever lose the clubhouse like this? I think, in baseball, you hire the best manager you can, and then leave him there for 10 years. The firing of Gibby was a mistake. I said it then, and I repeat it now. This is not like hockey where you change the coach every 2 to 3 years.
MW: There was never a feeling like this about Gibby in the clubhouse.
- ScottMike, you got bumped in the blog lineup. How can you be behind fantasy sports and video games. Your real blog is a lot better.
MW: Behind fantasy sports and video games? I don’t think so. I understand being behind the Leafs, though - they drive the bus.
- RossOkay so the best first move is not to change the uniforms back, but my back handed point was that what else is left for fans to say? Look at this! I’m a manager in a different world but if my team was saying this crap about me and I found out through the media, playing like the jays did this season, not only would I go ballaistic in the clubhouse but I would point out what a bunch of whiners they all are.
No matter what anyone says, Cito doesn’t win the games and he certainly doesn’t lose them! The perpetually inept players do! Johnny Mac running the oposite direction of the ball, Aaron Hill lifting his glove away from an easy grounder into a DP. Don’t tell me that wasn’t staged all in the same inning last night. Cry babies! Idiots! Someone give me millions of dollars and I’ll become collicky too! Embarassing!
DO I support Cito 100%? No! Of course not, no one could support the amount of playing time Grandpa Millar gets BUT this day care act has to stop! If Travis Snider is a part of this don’t let the door hit ya on the way out. Or can you find the door?
Give me a break!
MW: That wasn’t staged all in the same inning last night.
- Chris BakerMaybe it is a bit clearer to me now anyway, why Beeston made the trip to Baltimore. He obviously must have had some insight as to what was going on in the clubhouse and knew his presence would be needed if not requested.
I do find it hard to believe Cito would be so negative towards his players. However, his body language and non-moves did show a lot of the same at times during a game. It is just too bad things have gotten to this point between him and his players.
Said it long before this latest fiasco that Cito has to go. I did not however want to see it as a result of discontent amongst his players towards him. If we as observers get annoyed by some of Citos’ moves or non moves, I can only imagine the frustration the players themselves must have felt.
John Gibbons most certainly did have far better vision as to how his players should be used and how to get the best out of them. Your example of Jesse Carlson is a fine example of that Mike. Another example in my book was how Gibby used Johnny Mac with regard to his most obvious strength. Sure Scuttaro had a fantastic year at SS but JM should have been used a lot more in the late innnings of close games as to defense.
Ah - I guess we could go on and on with this stuff but why bother. I just hope the Jays (Beeston)as an organization do the right thing here for all concerened, or it is going to be a nasty spring training and a long, long season in 2010.
The fall classic is just around the corner. How about some predictions! of course for me it’s the Red Sox. Not the first time they have gone into the post season on a limp and a losing streak only to win it all!
I really do admire your reporting Mike with regard to this fiasco. Respecting the “off the record” comments can only win you even more trust and confidence from those speaking to you under those terms. Tough to do at times, but well respected.
Keep on doing what you do best, you are likley as well regarded amongst your peers and the players as you are by most of us as to your style.
Thank you.
MW: Thank you!
- Bob (from Burlington)I”m pretty sure Rosenthal did not go to any of the players. I agree with those who think this mess was a lovely parting gift sent by JP Ricciardi. He’s known as a source for baseball writers, you and Jeff Blair have both said that. Rosenthal, if I remember correctly, broke the Halladay trade story as well, and I doubt that came from anyone other than JP.
I don’t necessarily blame the guy. He feels he’s getting shafted, and he’s almost certainly out the door next week with a kick up the behind to send him on his way. The local media hate him and so do the fans. Some of the Jays dislike the manager, who is an icon in this city, so fan the flames a little and try to deflect attention from what will certainly be a huge celebration when he gets fired.
- isabella reyesI have not supported every move Cito made this year but then I could say that about every manager Toronto has ever had. Do I think he made some mistakes? Sure, proabably more than I know. He has however conducted himself professionally (at least in public) and been respectful of his players in all of his comments. To hear players complain anonymously about Cito is the height of selfishness. I just listened to Cito’s interview after Vernon Wells had his first 4 RBI game and he commented on how Vernon had struggled, but had consistently tried his best, never giving up. Then I listen to Vernon’s comments that Cito is too “old school” for his liking. I wonder what old school is. Could it mean being respectful of others? Could it mean holding people accountable? Particularly people with huge contracts who should be expected to lead by example? I’m not really sure but I suspect if Vernon’s parents had been more “old school”, rather than pointing fingers, he would be looking in the mirror. He would be apologizing to his manager rather than chastising him.
Shameful behaviour from a bunch of under-achieving spoiled brats.
MW: Seriously? You’re bringing up Wells’ parents?
- GaryDouble post here Mike your blog in part states;
MW: Look, the truth is that tactically, Cito is a laissez-faire guy on offense. Put nine guys in the line-up and leave them there.
For those, to include myself who are wondering how that fits, take a look below at the definition of it with regard to leadership.
laissez-faire:
Non-authoritarian leadership style. Laissez faire leaders try to give least possible guidance to subordinates, and try to achieve control through less obvious means. They believe that people excel when they are left alone to respond to their responsibilities and obligations in their own ways.
Mike, that is for certain hitting the nail very squarely on the head with regard and with respect towards to Cito and his style! Great observation and use of that phrase as to proper context and definition of Cito Gaston, as an MLB manager! Can’t say enough about that - I am truly impressed!
Keep it coming brother - love that stuff!
Thanks!
- Bob (from Burlington)I just saw the Mr. Riccardi has been fired. This a step in the right direction. Mr. Gaston obviously cannot manage the team he has been hired for, so he must also go!
- CharlieHe needs a team that will “kiss his ‘ring’” and play well in spite of his “way of doing things”.
Charlie
Why’d you change the blog title?
MW: Some people were concerned that it might have been offensive.
- Flaming MoeMike:
I was wanted to say I was sorry that your best friend was let go as GM of the Jays.
I wanted to offer my condolences to you.
I hope that you are back next year on the Fan,I really enjoy your show.
Thanks
MW: I wish my best friend was the GM of the Jays - I’d have had a lot more input than I do.
- ROBRiccardi fired - do you think Beeston fired him before the end of the season thinking Riccardi was the source of the leak about the anti Cito sentiment?
I hope the Jays go the route of pouring money into the team. But I’m very skeptical that is the route they will go.
MW: I’m skeptical, too, but it all depends on who the next President is.
- Jim MaronThanks for the memories JP. The Blue Jays were very lucky to have you as their GM for the longest time.
- Joey StevensJP is FIRED!!!!! Great day, maybe all the media crap yesterday was the final nail in his coffin. But I guess you won’t see how this is related unless you believe that he had something to do with it.
MW: Sigh.
- JCWell Mike. You were wrong about the worst GM in baseball not being on his way out. End of a bad era. The worst era in Blue Jays’ history, by far.
Have to say I’m disappointed in the Anthopolous promotion. I guess any step that begins with Ricciardi’s removal is a good one, but I can’t see how Anthopolous has done anything remotely deserving of being made GM. Looks more like he was a warm body in the right spot.
MW: When did the worst GM in baseball get fired?
- Ricky RomeroBeautiful!!..Riccardi is gone..Should have happened 2 seasons ago..Beeston should be next but if he is doing the firing, then maybe we are stuck with him..
He didn’t get the chance to quit..Firing the worst GM in Jays history was the only way..Let the excuses begin..
MW: Ricciardi wasn’t the worst GM in Jays’ history.
- ray bHe does get guys to respect him and play hard for him. Sure he makes some bad decisions on the field, but there was no complaining when the Jays were winning at the end of last year and early this season. This is just another excuse from a bunch of guys who love to make excuses. Is it possible that perhaps Cito was trying to wake some guys on this team up? After all, outside of Hill, Lind, Halladay, and Scutaro, (and Rolen when he was here), everyone else on this team has failed to play up to expectations. Bill Belichek doesn’t go the route of positive reinforcement; he goes the route of “do your job” and everything else will fall into place. Maybe that’s why that team wins no matter who is on the field for them, and why every other sports franchise can only look up to them and try to duplicate that model.
MW: Cito gets guys to respect him and pay hard for him? And you say this based on what? That’s a sentence that should be in the past tense.
- AlexHi Mike,
I posted a query similar to the poster at #37 on DJF; essentially wondering why Rosenthal would be the outlet. Especially in light of the fact that Shi Davidi seemed to have much, much more detail and quotes, etc., in his story, which was clearly a reaction to the story going up on Fox News. Anyhoo, the post on DJF generated zero discussion, and you’ve explained quite rationally why you didn’t ‘break’ this story.
Putting personalities aside for a moment (is that possible in this saga?), doesn’t Griffin’s assertion that JP was himself the source for the breaking story seem likely?
I cannot imagine, especially if things had been brewing for a while but kept successfully quiet by players, that they would go to Rosenthal of all people to stir the pot. Why wouldn’t players have just gone to Davidi, who’d clearly been talking to them on the subject and had more detail/context in his pocket and could assemble something more coherent than Rosenthal’s ’story’ (which looked like a Liz Smith paragraph, frankly.)? If indeed it were the players who wanted this story broken.
And there’s the rub. It would make sense to me that JP would attempt throw Cito under a bus with the hope that people would look away from the crapload he sits atop, even if temporarily.
You’ve implied to a commenter above that this sort of thinking is off-base. Can you tell me why? I wanna know!!!
Thanks!
MW: I don’t think that Ricciardi thought he was sitting atop a crapload, and I don’t think he would have felt the need to throw Cito under the bus in order to deflect attention from his impending job loss.
- HighJaysFanCito has had some positives with guys like Lind and Hill. It shows in their numbers from this year compared to last year.
I hope they give Randy Ruiz a good long look as the starting DH next year. If you take his numbers from the 30 games he played this year and multiply them out over a whole season he could be looking at close to 60 HRs and 150+ RBI. Not saying that he would od that but the numbers dont lie.
Hopefully a new Skip can come in and reunite the clubhouse so that the Organization doesnt get a bad rep from this.
- Brandon FI wonder if the Jays are headed in the direction of the Expos?
In my contacts with people there is very little interest with this club (when was the last time you saw anyone wearing a Jay’s hat/shirt?).
This latest debacle only serves to further dilute fan interest.
MW: Enough with the Expos already? It’s a scaremongering tactic statement made with absolutely no critical thinking.
- Jay BergHey Mike,
I think your losing touch, JP just got fired and you didn’t think he would…. Things will improve now, that the “little guy with a big mouth is gone”.
Lots of positives for next year, Hill,Lind,Romero,Ruiz, Batista,Encarcion. Overbay is hitting again.
Now that JP is gone, we can go forward with Halliday and a new free agent pitcher, Marcum.
The winds of change…..
Chris.
MW: I have been saying for a better part of the month that I thought J.P. would be fired at season’s end.
- ChrisVernon Wells is supposed to be paid to hit not complain about the manager.
Riccardi may be thankful he’s gone from this team. I feel bad for the new manager. He is inheriting a big mess.
- dave12Mike,
Thanks for the blog - its very informative.
By leaking this story, the players have invited us the public to comment. So… right you are, a lost room should equal a lost Manager. Given the Manager and President are closely tied together, that makes two and likely three in management to go this winter. Even I as a fan knew the President had scheduled a luncheon with the Players this weekend. Then why go public rather than wait for lunch? My initial reaction is this is not a major league move. Don’t the Players all have expensive agent/lawyers looking after their best interests? I’m going to suggest this is public to literally call-out Ownership for a rudder. This should be an interesting off season.
MW: Interesting. I never thought it might have been an agent who tipped Rosenthal. I doubt it, though.
- Jake from ThornhillWell’s is the only constant on this team during all the turmoil, from Tosca, to Gibbon’s to Gaston, kinda seems ironic that he is the supposed voice of this latest rumination of discontent. How a guy having the third straight sub par season with the money he’s making has any thought of having a vocal right to stand up is beyond me, shut up and play ball! You owe it to that uniform that you wear and the fans that pay to see your lack of performance; you’re a professional getting huge money to play a kids game, act like it!
I’m sure Gaston has called you out on this and you can’t handle it. The ship that was sinking back when Shea Hillenbrand so uttered may not have been far from the truth, and you mr Wells have been a constant all this time!!!
MW: Wells isn’t reading this - and if he is, I’m sure he’s as appalled by your use of the apostrophe as I am. The fact that you believe Wells had a subpar season last year takes a pretty huge bite out of your credibility.
- AaronHey Mike
The over/under on Jay wins for this season was actually 79.5, so they won’t exceed that mark. The wife was terrified when the club got off to the hot start, but in the end i’m cashing in. Hopefully sometime soon, i will be betting on the “over” for the Jays.
MW: Wow, it was that high?
- Rickf cito gave randy ruiz 100 AB
and he hit ( was it 9 or 8 HR), then in a 300 AB season he hits 27 or 24.
thats pretty damn good.
MW: It is, though you can’t necessarily extrapolate B from A. And hitters get closer to 600 at-bats in a full season of action.
exactly, do the math…..
8 x 600/100 = 48
48 homeruns in a season.
now thats better than pretty damn good.
MW: Again, just because a guy is “on pace” for something doesn’t mean he’ll actually come close to doing it. Remember, Marco Scutaro was on pace for about 25 homers at the end of April.
- TheSunkenZealotHi Mke,
A great diagnosis on all the missteps of Cito this year. I could never understand why he chose to platoon a budding young star in Snider early in the season, and then batting him 8th or 9th when he was called up later in the season.
I felt he also misused Accardo and especially Tallet as well. Overbay with his high OBP should have been in the 2 slot in the order…Millar must have pictures on someone to have played so much despite being very ineffective. What did Ruiz do wrong to have not been given more playing time?
But the thing that bugged me the most was the lack of fire and leadership that Gaston showed as his team continually got hit by pitches later in the season with seemingly no retaliation from his own pitchers to the opposition. I think I remember you saying once since August 26th Jay hitters had been HBP’s 16 times and the opposition only 4….Was Cito telling his pitchers not to retaliate?? I commend Halladay and Carlson for stepping up on behalf of their hit batsmen teammates.
- BrianScooped again by the American media. Why does no Toronto writer/broadcaster ever BREAK stories. Always playing catchup to their American counterparts. It’s embarrassing.
MW: Things don’t get leaked to us - and when they do, we tend not to go with them until we can get someone on the record.
- usare comment 53..
Clueless??..Gaston is around for one more season..The new GM has said that..If things were as bad as you say it was then why isn’t Gaston fired?
MW: I guess because Paul Beeston doesn’t want to let the inmates run the asylum.
- ray bHey Mike,
I worked the last two nights, so I did not get a chance to listen to much of the games. Maybe my question has already been answered, but I’m just wondering if these guys do not like the way Cito manages the team - and I’m a Cito fan, but I don’t agree with all of his decisions, such as Ruiz’s playing time - how would they handle playing for somebody such as Ozzie in Chicago who publicly calls out his players using profane language?
MW: I think Ozzie is probably a guy that players wind up tuning out pretty quickly. You don’t think profanity actually bothers pro athletes, do you?
- DavidThanks, Mike, for providing some perspective from the inside. Sorely needed. I feel bad about what allowed you to feel comfortable doing it — I would have preferred a few players show willingness to go on the record with you — but I feel like I got good reporting from someone I trust. Thanks for that.
As for the team, you know we agree most times on managing tactics, and I noticed yesterday that Cito never took Halladay out in the middle of an inning. Not once. Halladay had zero bequeathed runners. It reminds me of how he handled Morris, even on the days when Morris didn’t deserve it. Typical Cito.
As you wrote, when Cito was getting players to be willing to jump out of a plane to play for him (Stottlemyre), I could accept his questionable tactics. One used to say that he managed for 162 games, rather than for any one of them. Still, if he has indeed lost his touch with this team, then it’s time for him to move on. I wish him well. He might win a World Series somewhere else, but I hope too that he opts for the cushy job with the Jays.
- J. B. RainsbergerRight on Wilner with your comments.Maybe it’s true that Cito just filled out the lineup card and let the boys play in the good old glory days altho I don’t believe it was that simple.More than ever he seems to sit there like an automaton and barly move or make any in-game strategic moves. Tennace appears to be a clone of his crony/boss.Arnsberg, however, seems to show interest and empathy when talking to his pitchers. Can Cito be blamed for the horrible year Wells had or the sub-par play of Lyle Overpaid,Rios,Snider, Downs,Frasor? Maybe partly but apparently Hill and Lind blossomed on his watch. On balance though, I think that Cito should go. I can see him being fired part way through next season…about June 15/10.
MW: I don’t think we’ll see Cito fired in the middle of a season.
- CarlosHumm..Paul Beeston?..Isn’t he the president and “non baseball guy?”..Isn’t the GM supposed to make all the personnel decisions regarding the Manager and players?..
MW: No G.M. operates with total control over all baseball decisions.
- ray bMy take on Cito Gaston is very simple. Why would a manager who has won two World Series titles not be willing to be interviewed by another team and inform them of his management philosophy and how that philosophy contributed to his success? Methinks, Cito knows that he was the lucky jockey on a couple of very good horses QED.
MW: He was willing to be interviewed, many times. But he got to the point where he didn’t want to do it anymore.
- Arlington