12:15 AM Eastern
I know I said that I wouldn’t be doing any weekend blogging during the summer because of Baseball Today, but I’m breaking the rule because we’re just coming off the all-star break.
And we have come off the break pretty much the same way we went in, watching the Blue Jays being unable to score and losing close games. Tonight’s loss was their 9th in 11 games and 13th in the last 16 – at least it was by more than two runs, first time that has happened since June.
Clay Buchholz looked terrific and Daniel Bard looked even better – and what do you know, they’re two of the names prominently mentioned in all those Halladay-to-the-Red-Sox rumours. Lyle Overbay and Adam Lind were the only ones who had an answer, while Ricky Romero struggled with his control. The rookie lefty suffered his fourth loss (half of which have been to Boston), issuing five walks over his 4 1/3 innings of work. Two of those walks were ahead of David Ortiz’ two-run double off the left-field wall – one of those two walks was in a terrific 12-pitch battle with Dustin Pedroia.
Shawn Camp continued his transmogrification into some sort of super-long-man, retiring all eight hitters he faced.
Vernon Wells sat out with the stomach flu – so try to find a way to blame this loss on him – and the Jays hope he’ll be back in there tomorrow. Dave Dellucci played left and made a couple of outstanding catches, but then took a ball off the foot in the 7th inning and had to leave the game. Without Wells, the Jays had to put John McDonald in the outfield so as not to lose their DH. It was the first time Johnny Mac has ever played the outfield in professional baseball, and the Sox didn’t hit a single ball his way in two innings.
Looch may have a broken foot, which leads one to wonder whatever would the Blue Jays do if they lost him. Hopefully they’ll call up Travis Snider, or failing that, Randy Ruiz, and stick whoever comes up in the line-up every day. Neither of them were yanked from their game with Las Vegas tonight (Snider homered!), but they wouldn’t have been able to do much in a day game after a red-eye anyway.
Unfortunately, due to a technical issue, we aren’t able to put tonight’s edition of The JaysTalk up here for your listening pleasure. It was a pretty short one because of the Argo game – we only had time for two calls, though they were spectacular.The series continues with a Saturday afternooner featuring Marc Rzepczynski against Brad Penny. Brian Tallet was supposed to start, but Cito Gaston moved him back to the bullpen for a week, saying he needed another lefty down there. Tallet becomes the 5th starter, and the Jays don’t need one of those until next Saturday. If Zep and Cecil continue to pitch well, Tallet may stay in the ‘pen once Shaun Marcum comes back in three weeks or so.
Make sure to tune us in at 12:30 PM Eastern for a 1:07 first pitch!
Rational, reasonable comments are always welcome!
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gord ash was at the ballpark tonight. he must be laughing at the fact that 9 years later the only good players he’s scouting were all his draft picks!
MW: I thought Alex Rios and Vernon Wells were terrible, though.
- jacobyhow much you wanna bet the jays lose 100 games this year? at least 90 for sure. they seemed to have accepted losing now as the norm. 3-13 is just ridiculous yet JP makes no moves
MW: Rational, reasonable comments are always welcome.
- jacobyMichael,
How much, if any, of the Jays scale back in payroll this year was because of the passing of Edward Samuel Rogers Jr.?
Was Ted more keen on keeping the Jays payroll competitive than current ownership?
I’m asking because I know little to nothing about who at Rogers is running the team now, and the reduction in payroll this season was a little surprising to me.
MW: The Jays’ president’s direct report is Tony Viner, who is the head of Rogers Media, under whose banner the Blue Jays fall. That’s the same as it was before Mr. Rogers died.
- Uncle BenMike Mike, it’s not even hard to blame Wells for this performance. Quite simply, by digesting some $18M/year, that’s the difference between having Looch in left field tonight and Manny Ramirez, or any other of two dozen superstar hitters.
MW: So it’s Wells’ fault for accepting the contract offer?
- Adam Gboth youkilis and papelbon were drafted in later rounds, so to keep saying that payroll is the reason the sox win is simply not true. you still have to draft well. these are players the jays could easily have gotten. imagine if the jays had drafted those 2, their records would be significantly different.
MW: Yes, they would be. But so would the records of any of the other 28 major league teams that didn’t draft them. Papelbon was taken in the fourth round, Youkilis in the 8th, which means that every other team in the majors bypassed them both several times.
- jacobyMW: Cito isn’t 2-12 in his last 14 games (and neither are the Blue Jays, by the way) – the manager can only put his players in the best position to do their best, it’s up to the players after that. Whether Cito consistently puts his players in the best positions to perform at their best is debatable. The Jays went into the break, by the way, with four wins in their last 14 games, not that that’s much better than 2-12.
actually that is not correct they only had 3 wins in last 15. and since cito wasnt there for cecil’s win he was 2-12, now 2-13
MW: The Jays were 2-8 on the trip, won the last game before the trip, but lost the four before that, which would have given them three wins in the last 15, you’re right. I wonder where I got 4 in 14 from.
- jacobyIt’s great to hear you on “Baseball Today” exploring performance metrics of baseball players. I’d like to introduce a performance metric to measure baseball General Managers in Toronto. I call this metric “MSGIEY”. Meaningful September games in eight years: ZERO. Therefore, JP Ricciardi = EPIC FAIL
MW: Yeah, that’s kind of unfortunate. Of course, they don’t play in a vacuum, but you’re not interested in hearing that.
- DaveMike you were correct on the Rays and Rockies as teams that have never thrown a no-no. Do you agree that the Halladay saga is going to end 1 of 2 ways: they either sign him to an extension or they trade him before July 31. One of those things will happen before the 31st. Agree?
Peter, St.Catharines
MW: Nope.
- PeterMike, a question re Shaun Marcum — I know he pitched well on Thursday night, but I did not see his pitch count (the MiLB box scores on the FisherCat website don’t include that stat). Do you know what he is up to at this point in his rehab?
MW: Pitch count-wise, I dont.
- NormWelcome back Mike.
I was curious. There is always a lot of talk of the Blue Jays’ budget. However, would you have a ball park figure of their total expenditures including other staff, minor league expenses, travel, hotels, per diems, signing bonuses, etc? Thank you.
MW: I really don’t. The per diem, I think, is about $84 for everyone.
- StanThis team is going to have to get younger to get better, so I was happy to hear Rzepczynski will be replacing Tallet in the rotation. The Jays in the future should stop the habit of merely filling holes with serviceable veterans and look to younger players with significant upside to establish themselves. A Halladay, Marcum, Romero, Cecil and Rzepczynski rotation looks pretty fine until Halladay is traded to get younger and better as a team. If we acquire an Adam Jones-type player in the mix, I think any trade will have to be considered a success. Let’s see Snider up here soon as well.
- Will, OshawaWas down at the game against the Bosox last night. It felt like the “spirit” of the team is evaporating. There were lots of Bosox fans there last night — but that really wasn’t the problem. This was not a typical Boston-Toronto game.
I love the Jays and believe we have some great players — but the spark of a guy like a Youklis — we just don’t have.
The really great teams have that guy who can step up and seemingly deliver in crucial moments. The Jays have been close during this losing streak — but it seems the guys they face on the mound are suddenly world beaters against us.
I suspect that the whole Halliday thing is counter-productive in the club house. I don’t believe it will help Doc to be better in the second half — and it certainly won’t spark the Jays to turn this thing around.
I have said it before — the media in this city will not be happy until JP is gone. He has put together a good team — great pitching prospects, good position players like Lind [soon to be a 1B-man], Hill and hopefully soon -Travis.
But you can’t go out on the field and play the game for them!!
- Gary ReidMW: That’s not true at all. And you owe Looch an apology. He doesn’t turn and go back to the dugout until the umpire calls him out, which is the right thing to do.
Mike I think what Dave was saying was that Looch should of ran to first as it was a live ball.
MW: Should HAVE, but he had hurt his foot.
- DustinMW: Vernon Wells sat out with the stomach flu – so try to find a way to blame this loss on him
Wait a bit, Mike. Just take a second–actually you’ll need more than that–and go through all the rallies that Wells has killed this year. Count all the men that he has left on base because he has failed to hit with runners in scoring position.
There’s a reason why we are all up in Vernon Well’s face. Even now that he’s hitting, he’s not hitting for power. I understand he’s having a horrible year, but he has to take responsibility for more than a few of our losses this season. So if we’re tetchy about him, we’ve got good reason to be tetchy. He may not like that, you may not like that, but them’s the breaks. When a player lands a huge contract, the fans like to see at least a couple of good reasons why he landed said contract. We haven’t seen that from Wells, and even if he starts to hit like Roger Maris in the second half, it’s a bit too late to help the team and would be adding insult to injury.
Add to that the fact that his huge contract–no matter how good an idea it seemed at the time–is going to hamper any signings the club wants to make for the next 5 years, and you’ve got a perfect storm of discontentment out here.
MW: The discontentment I don’t mind, it’s well-deserved. But a lot of the complaints go too far. He doesn’t suck, and there’s no reason to believe that the 2009 Wells is the one with whom the Jays will be stuck for the rest of his contract than there is that it’ll be the 2008 Wells. He hit .300 and led the team in home runs last season. He’s in the Jays’ top 5 all-time in runs, hits, doubles, homers, extra base hits, RBIs, slugging percentage and, yes, sac flies. Isn’t that more than a couple of good reasons why he got said contract?
- isabella reyesDellucci should be happy he has a broken foot. I bet he was inches away from being released.
The Jays are going nowhere, so it’s better to get someone like Snider up and develop him.
MW: He doesn’t have a broken foot, as it turns out.
- SteveSee, this is the difference between a well organized team like the Red Sox that they have an alternative player to every position, in case someone underachieves or is injured. Unlike the Blue Jays, who have nothing at first, shortstop, third or outfield who is waiting in the wings. Keep in mind this Sox team has finished first almost every year, which means they draft at the bottom. As for the Jays they draft in the middle and can’t come through with a half decent draft year in year out, thanks to Ricciardi and his disciples. And also Mike, what makes you think the Jays aren’t a financial mess? They have 81 million committed to 11 or 12 players next year. It seems that you are quick to protect JP, when it’s pretty obvious on paper that he’s created a huge mess with this team.
MW: You really think it’s because the Red Sox are well organized? As opposed to the fact that their payroll is over 50% higher than the Jays’? The Red Sox, by the way, have $76 million committed to only seven players for next season – and if they pick up Josh Beckett’s option – which is likely – it’ll be $88 million for 8.
- Danny from MapleHi Mike,
- marioLast time I participated in this forum the Jays were in first place.I am rejoining to put my two cents on the Halladay situation.First off I consider Doc and Stieb the two best Jay pitchers of all time.Does that mean I wouldn’t trade Doc.Absolutely not.Like you said more than once if the right deal comes along .Trade him.What really amazes me are some scribes and fans alike who say that baseball in Toronto is over if he walks.Like it would’ve been over if Wells walked.Back then everybody was saying how we needed to sign him if we were ever going to be taken seriously as a baseball town again.Two+ years later everybody blaming J.P. for doing what everybody at the time said we must do.At the time I didn’t think we should have spent that kind of money on Wells AND NOW WE ARE FULL CIRCLE with Doc.Does Doc deserve the money yes.But if Wells and his side kick Rios keep playing like they are it is going to take more than Halladay to get this team to compete with the rest of the east.I say we take a good look at our roster and if we are honest there are to many holes.History shows that a move like this can make a team great if done properly ie
Smoltz for Alexander or can hurt like Young for Loiza.WE can wait perhaps one more year
and hopefully Wells and Rios pick up there play and some kids come up from the minors but if the right deal comes along I say do it.
Go Jays!!!
“Looch may have a broken foot, which leads one to wonder whatever would the Blue Jays do if they lost him.”
What indeed. You can’t really replace somebody like that.
- Flaming MoeI was just wondering what you guys thought when Mr.Ashby was talking about the daily “breast” food bank. Twice.
MW: He read the card wrong. It happens.
- ChadWe are what we are now, inconsistant hitters and game but low on experience starters.
Given that even when entirely healthy, we have zero proven #2-3 starting pitching but lots of potential, I don’t see remotely competing until 2011.
Having said that, I think from a purely baseball point of view, we should consider trading Doc.
JP could have nipped this whole thing in the bud by saying “barring a ridiculous offer that no GM in his right mind would offer us, Doc is untradeable”. With recent reports now speculating that the Jays can’t afford to resign him and naming the teams scouting his next start, it almost seems these stories are being planted to get the fans ready for the inevitable trade.
Given his own recent comments “out of my hands blah blah” and the fact that he evidently gave the Jays a list of preferred teams, Doc seems to have been told it may happen as well.
Given all this, with an eye to really comptete in 2011, would you trade Doc for the bluest chip prospects who will mature into a 20 game winner plus a 100 RBI guy? (throw in whatever decent spare parts you like).
Let me add that I hope they don’t trade him but I also know they’ll never win it all with their payroll, combined with what he’ll command/deserves on re-signing.
If he’s worth 2-3 “can’t miss guys” maybe they aren’t prospects but young up and comers in the big leagues already, it just may be the sad but prudent thing to do.
PS
PLEASE not to NY or Boston!
MW: The biggest problem is, of course, that even the can’t-missiest prospects miss, and they do so all the time.
- Garymike what was the blue jays risp avg last year? and from where can i get past season references?
MW: The Jays hit .260 with RISP last year. I got that from espn.com.
- bob-Rogers wants NFL-They portray themselves a s in a big market
-Rogers owns Jays-They portray themselves as small or mid market (by design?)
Confusing!!! Or Not. Your bosses are strange. They need to decide what they are. Is their Toronto big market or small market?
MW: My Toronto is a big market. One of the biggest in North America.
- Joe S,MW: He hit .300 and led the team in home runs last season.
He had 20 home runs last year. As of right now he is probably on-track for 20 this year. That is not enough home runs from the clean-up hitter. His RISP percentage is a joke. And he hasn’t had a difference-making season since 2006. This may change. He may well have an excellent season next year, but this year, when the batting went cold in late May/June, it should have been Wells and of course Rios who stepped up to help out. They didn’t.
It’s all well and good to tell us this version of the Jays weren’t supposed to do well at all. We’ve still got that major hot streak at the beginning of the season to contend with, and of course we thought ‘maybe this year! Maybe…’ It’s a bit like last year’s 10-game hit streak. If the team were just mediocre right across the board we wouldn’t like it but it would be more bearable than watching flashes of brilliance and then having our hopes crash back to earth. It’s true that Rios rather than Wells is the poster child for this kind of malignant volatility, but Wells isn’t helping matters any and his contract will be a handicap for years. Add to that the Halladay circus, our tempers are getting shorter by the nano-second.
MW: He had 20 home runs in 2/3 of a season last year. He’s on track for about 16 1/2 this year.
- isabella reyescan you post the brandy halladay interview?
MW: Nope.
- bobMichael,
Kevin Charles Millar is hitting .176 versus right handers.
When Travis Snider comes back up do you think we’ll see Kevin just used against lefties from here on out or will the Gaston/Millar bromance continue?
Thanks for helping satiate a baseball fan in a hockey town.
MW: You’re welcome. I think that Millar is pretty much done starting against right-handers this season, unless there are extraordinary circumstances such as Dellucci and Wells both being unavailable, as they were Saturday.
- Uncle BenHow about this trade for Doc
Los Angles Dodgers
-Roy Halladay
Toronto Blue Jays
-Clayton Kershaw
-Russel Martin
-Devaris Gordan or any other top 7 dodger prospect
MW: Martin’s offensive dropoff this season is a little troubling, but there are those who believe that Halladay for Kershaw straight up would be just fine. If I’m dealing with the Dodgers, I’d like to bring back one of their young hitters with big-league experience like Kemp or Loney.
- JazzMichael,
I suspect the way the gold gloves work that Mike Lowell will win the 3B award again this year.
After watching Rolen in today’s game Lowell will know where to send it.
- Uncle BenMike…I know how the plethora of Maple Leafs’ coverage at times can get under your skin and yourself being in a profession dealing with baseball, it makes you scratch your head with bad attendance and other factors that are not pro-baseball..But come February and the Olympic hockey team will be going for gold, do you Mike become 100% fan and try not to compare and wish that the WBC was treasured as much as Canadian International Hockey?..I know I get annoyed at the lack of lacrosse coverage in the GTA, a sport I love as much as any.
MW: There’s a big difference between Major League Baseball and the NLL, though. I will be cheering hard for all the Canadians at the Olympics, always do, regardless of the sport. I was in a bar in New Orleans, watching every second, when Canada won gold in men’s hockey in Salt Lake.
- chris m.Listening to JaysTalk after today’s ball game, I was frustrated by the callers who complained that the Jays have never kept their stars: Delgado, Green, etc. Yet when the Blue Jays have kept their stars: Wells, Rios, or gone out and overpaid free agents to get them to come to Toronto: Burnett, Ryan, and when those same stars do not live up to their contracts, people complain because management has given them too-long, too-rich contracts.
I remember it well, when Wells was up for a new contract, that the media and fans were saying that if the Blue Jays did not lock up Wells it would prove they were not serious about winning. Well, JP found a way to lock him up, and now fans object.
Hindsight is fun, isn’t it?
Btw, neither Delgado nor Green led the Jays to the promised land. One player can’t do it.
Mike, I’m curious about where the Blue Jays would have ranked the past few years based on their won/loss record without regard for divisions. It doesn’t help them into the playoffs, but it might surprise some people who consider them mediocre losers.
MW: Where they would have ranked in the league as a whole? Middle of the pack, pretty much every year. Out of the 14 AL teams – 7th last season, 7th in 2007, 7th in 2006, 8th in 2005.
- kateMike,
Why is that you back fans up when they say that Rogers should be investing more in the team, Why do you not just educate these fans.
You know very well that the Blue jays and the Yankess are owned by different types of business people, In two totally different cities.
The Blue Jays are owned by a communications corporation which purchased the team and the teams real estate, to promote the name of the company. ROGERS.
Rogers very wisely has kept the cost of running this franchise to a bare minimum. Sports is not part of RCI’s core business. It’s all about advertising. Blue Jays are a cheap assett displayed through Rogers Radio and Television assets, which as a result lures advertisers. It becomes expensive when you start hiking payroll, and it would defeat the purpose of hiking payroll when you purchased the assett for pennies on the dollarand you start pouring all this money in.
On the other hand the New York Yankess is a very successful family owned business and a marketing monster. Who’s owners have strictly devoted their attention to the New York Yankees and their fans. The size of New York’s population and the passion for all level of sports contributes to the success of New York Teams. There is no reason for an owner to have second thoughts about investing in a team when the owner is passionate about the sport and the city shows passion as well. In New York Owners are confident that funds invested are recoverable, through ticket sales, merchandise, and ad dollars and from their very own YES network. Communications companies do not care about sports it’s all about advertising
Tribune company sold the cubs, Time Warner sold the braves, Fox sold the Dogers and very soon I feel Rogers communication will unload the Jays.
Upping the payroll doesn’t guarantee anything(especially with the current gm.) it simply puts Rogers at risk to loose money on an assett that is not part of it’s core business.
MW: You make some very good points, though I think you go a little too far with the New York City thing and I don’t think that Rogers is soon to unload the team. But the spelling and grammar are killing me.
- ThomasHey Mike have a Question for you. With Marcum coming back early, do you think the jays should slow him down a bit? look what Happen to B.J. Ryan. Even thoe B.J. had a good season last year, he really stugled this year and it could be that he didn’t take his time healing from the injury proper. Look at A.J. Burnett and Chris Carpenter, both shut it down when the had to and both seem to have recovered fully. I think the Jays should play it and smart and not rush his return.
MW: Neither of us are doctors, but there are a few doctors – specialists in the field, actually – who are keeping their eyes on Marcum and his recovery. I’m confident they know better than you or I. Burnett’s stops and go’s weren’t because of his surgically-repaired elbow ligament, and Carpenter sat out this year with a ribcage strain.
- Hardeephey mike,
just wondering what it would cost the jays to acquire Joey Votto? if this could be done while keeping Lind, Snider, and Hill that would be great.
MW: Conservatively – a ton.
- bill in clintonboth youkilis and papelbon were drafted in later rounds, so to keep saying that payroll is the reason the sox win is simply not true. you still have to draft well. these are players the jays could easily have gotten. imagine if the jays had drafted those 2, their records would be significantly different.
MW: Yes, they would be. But so would the records of any of the other 28 major league teams that didn’t draft them. Papelbon was taken in the fourth round, Youkilis in the 8th, which means that every other team in the majors bypassed them both several times.
mike, that is not your argument. it doesnt matter what 28 other teams did. we are talking about what the red sox did. you are always blaming payroll as the issue. the fact is the sox have drafted very well. Drafting star players is the difference between a good team and a great team. If they didnt draft youkilis they probably lose 5 more games a year do you not agree?
MW: No, I don’t. I don’t think Youkilis is worth five wins a year over whoever else the Red Sox would manage to plug in at first base. Truth is, when you pull out a gem after the 5th round, you got lucky.
- jacobymike, 2 questions for you:
1 – what has done a better job drafting theo epstein or JP?
2 – who has done a better job at spending money theo or JP?
3 – which organization has spent more money on players to not play for them, theo’s or JP’s?
MW: 1 – Remembering that it’s their scouting staffs doing the drafting and not the individuals themselves, it’s an impossible question to answer at this stage of the game. But as Ricciardi has blown a first-rounder on Russ Adams and second-rounders on Josh Banks and Curtis Thigpen, Epstein blew first-rounders on David Murphy, Matt Murton and Craig Hansen and second-rounders on Abe Alvarez, Mickey Hall and Jon Egan. 2 – Epstein has had much more money to spend. 3 – Without looking it up, I’m assuming that would be JP’s.
- jacobyyes I know it was 3 questions ok?
MW: OK.
- jacobyMike,
Please help explain this to me.
I’m reading that BJ Ryan has signed with the cubs and agreed to a stint in the minor leagues to correct himself.
I just don’t get it:
a) Would the Jays have asked BJ to do the same and he refused?
b) Did BJ have a contractual right to decline any move to the minors?
c) Why would BJ refuse to go to the minors with the Jays and then turn around and agree to do it with the cubs two weeks later?
It seems silly that the Jays wasted $15 million on releasing him, and then the cubs are able to pick him up for free and he agrees to go to the minors….
MW: A – Probably. B – A collectively bargained right, yes. C – Because he knew that the Jays only other option was to give him $15 million to go away, and that wasn’t such a bad option for him.
- Mervhearing paul beeston’s comments is very confusing. he keeps saying things that make no sense. he said he’d hire a new pres by last spring, never did. he says money is not an issue for halladay but they never offerred him an extension last offseason. he says the jays can spend up to boston but then they reduce payroll.
he is doing a great disservice to the fans by not giving a clear direction of what the future is.
- jacobymike, you keep saying vw contract was good at the time, but can you tell me how many 7 year deals have actually worked out for their teams? maybe jeter?
MLB also did it’s own study which showed that long term contracts generally dont work out for their teams, yet gm’s still keep doing them.
MW: Yes, GMs keep doing them.
- jacobyI keep spelling that anti spam word wrong. i am going to damage my computer soon. Can you make the word easier or something? It’s been a tough enough season for Jays fans. Spelling the anti spam word wrong is the straw that could break this camels back.
MW: It’s not your computer’s fault if you’re spelling the anti-spam word wrong.
- dave_12Why do some people post here all the time with such negative things to say…actually, why do they even watch baseball? I don’t get why they’re so bitter. Whether or not the Jays are on TV, you’re going to be paying for cable. So basically you’re watching them for free. If you’re paying to go to Jays games, you should be paying to go and have fun, and to have a good time. You shouldn’t be paying for a ticket to feel like the Jays owe you a win. Just chill out and enjoy the baseball you get. I’m a Jays fan but I’d much prefer to watch a ALCS of Boston vs. New York, and a World Series of LAD vs NY (Torre vs. NY) or LAD vs BOS (Manny vs. Boston) this year than the Jays in the World Series, because I think it’s better for baseball, opposed to better for myself.
If you need a perennial winner to cheer for to enjoy baseball, start cheering for another team! It’s not hard, you’re not forced to watch the Jays just because you live in Toronto.
MW: A lot of people like being negative. This is something I have discovered after eight years of doing this job.
- BrendanI predicted alex rios would hit 10-15 hr this year, you said 20. I win.
MW: You do? I didn’t realize the season only went until the middle of July.
- jacobyFor all those insecure Torontonians that think the city, it’s teams, etc., don’t get recognition and respect, Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun is one of the three finalists for the Hall of Fame’s J.G. Taylor Spink Award for meritorious contributions to baseball writing
MW: I believe he was last year, too – I hope he wins this time!
- Alan the stat geekstoll down memory lane…
bob elliott:
Here is what you should be upset about on the Hinske deal:
He was the AL’s top rookie in 2002, hitting .279 with 24 homers and 84 RBIs. The next spring the Jays, who could have renewed him at less than $500,000, gave him a five-year, $14.75-million deal.
Wells was given a similar deal the same day, although it amounted to less. Wells had been a No. 1 pick in 1997and had service time with the Jays in 1999, 2000 and ’01.
Hinske had been a 17th-round pick in 1998 and had been seen by the Jays for all of one season, although Ricciardi and Hinske were together with the Oakland A’s, Ricciardi as an assistant GM and Hinske at triple-A Sacramento in 2001.
The Jays could have looked at Hinske in 2003 and then had talks on a long-term deal, but noooo … he earned $500,000 in 2003, $800,000 in 2004, $3 million in 2005, $4.325 million this year and $5.626 next year.
you would think the guy would learn. just another in the long list of “gambles” that JP just had to take. It seems like JP is always trying to outsmart himself. “I am going to do something that no else is thinking so that when I am right, I will look like a total genius!”
MW: And yet the contract with Wells worked out beautifully.
- jacobyMW: He’s in the Jays’ top 5 all-time in runs, hits, doubles, homers, extra base hits, RBIs, slugging percentage and, yes, sac flies. Isn’t that more than a couple of good reasons why he got said contract?
Yes except no. My understanding is that Ricciardi shopped him all over the place before he re-signed him. He didn’t get any takers, and that was after he had a terrific year. That, right there, should have been something of a red flag. There was no reason whatsoever to give him an 8-year contract. If he’d made noises about walking, let him walk rather than landing the team with such a huge blot right in the middle of the budget.
I understand that hindsight is 20/20, and I also understand that Paul Godfrey was as culpable as JP Ricciardi, but I can’t help but look at the money that has been poured down the drain here. If I was a Rogers bean counter I would be apoplectic with rage. I would be cutting the team right back to the minimum amount possible and I would be keeping it that way for years and years. And that is what I expect will happen. The new GM–and there will be a new GM–will not be afforded any kind of leeway at all. Which will affect the calibre of candidates we get. So I am hopeful that either Anthopoulos or Cava gets the job because they will be aware of the history and have a better chance of dealing with what I expect to be very straightened circumstances for years to come.
MW: It’s LaCava, by the way. Your understanding about what happened with Wells before the Jays re-signed him is completely incorrect.
- isabella reyesMike you seem convinced that leadership and motivation in baseball does not exist or has nothing to do with a teams performance. At least that’s how you came across to me listening to your show the other day.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you on those issues. There are plenty of leaders in baseball. Motivation and leadership is and always has been a huge factor in all sports to include baseball!
Regardless of the sport, teams have their specific leaders without question and baseball is not an exception!
Not always the rah, rah, type of guys, but guys who lead by example be it on the field or off. For the most part the true leaders come through in the post season.
“Leadership is the behavioural process of influencing indiviuals or groups to achieve a common goal”! As to the motivational part of leadership, “positive leadership allows for others to operate close to, or at their given potential”.
A couple of great baseball examples of guys who have always stood out in my mind as team leaders, guys who could motivate and get the most out of their team mates.
How about a guy like Sal Bando of the “A’s” when they were chalking up WS consecutive titles. Not by any means a superstar but most certainly a smart player who led by example. A player who guys like Catfish Hunter and Reggie Jackson called the teams “true leader and motivator” both in the clubhouse and on the field.
Or a guy like Willie Stargell of the Pirates. Player after player on those late 70′s team said more than once that Stargell brought out the best in them and had them doing things they never thought possible due to his leadership.
To further motivate his team when they were struggling during the 1978 season. Stargell started the “Stargell Stars” whereas he would give players a gold star for great plays during a game. Players were motivated by this to do better, and as a result that season the Pirates came from 12 games back of the division leaders.
He employed the use of Sly and the Family Stones’ “Family Affair” hit song as motiviation for and with respect to his team in 1979 when they won the WS. Everytime I hear that song I always think of “Pops Stargell”!
Mike, the list is endless in Baseball as to leaders – guys who fall into a roll be it intentional or not. Guys who keep the peace in the clubhouse, motivate players from the dugout and on the field. Guys who by example can bring out the best in others. Guys who don’t look at a particular at bat “strike out” as a team mates failure – but rather the success of the opposing pitcher.
Leadership and motivation can and does win games! The lack of either or both very often is the difference between some wins and losses.
I agree with you 100% that in baseball you can’t just go out there and give it all as to motivating late in a game like other sports. You can’t expect to get a hit or make a great defensive play. There are far too many variables in baseball vs other sports for that type of scenerio. The biggest factor being individuality with repsect to most plays and always when at bat.
Finally, you lead by example here. Especially when asking for “rational, reasonable comments”. There are plenty of those on your blog who seek out answers to questions about baseball and they come to you for those answers and/or suggestions.
I would bet as a result of you Mike, many (not all) have gone back to double check their spelling and/or grammar before posting! See, you very likley motivate others to do better!
Thank you and keep up the great work!
MW: I can’t agree with you – there are so many great motivators and leaders who play for losing teams, and those losing teams remain losing teams.
- Bob from BurlingtonMike….
a) Why do teams have to send scouts to “check out” Roy Halladay? He’s a proven veteran and you know what you’re getting.
b) Something you may or may not be aware of. I heard on a rock radio station that there will be a “new” Beatles tune coming out. (no time frame given) Supposedly John, Paul and Ringo (George wasn’t there at the time) got together in 1978 and composed some music. George will be added electronically.
MW: A – Just to make sure he looks right. B – I hadn’t heard that.
- chris m.I agree Wells is a good player and is a much better player then we have seen so far this season…But he isn’t worth the contract..Not for the Jays..
When your budget is around 80 mil or so, Wells’ type contracts are a major problem..
I like Wells..I think he is one of the best center fielders in baseball..His salary doesn’t fit in here..
If the Jays trade Halladay, do you think Riccardi will be able to pull the trigger?..Will the Jays allow a GM on his way out to make the biggest trade in Toronto history?..Clearly, his time is done in Toronto..
MW: Clearly, it’s not, otherwise he wouldn’t still be in charge.
- ray bSo does Millar have comprising photos of Cito? That can be the only explanation as to why he is still on this team. Randy Ruiz is tearing it up in AAA. While Snider seems fit for the minors for a few more weeks, at least give someone else at shot. Millar is doing absolutely nothing. If the Jays aren’t competing this year, shouldn’t they be getting ready for the next?
MW: One would think so. I don’t believe there are photos, though.
- Renegadedo you think roy should be traded? if youre the gm do you trade him? for what? and do you see the jays contending with halladay? or without him (having a good package and doing some batting-guy shopping)next year?
MW: I don’t think Halladay should be traded, but I think if there’s an overwhelming package that comes back, they should do it. I think there’s a possibility they could contend next year, with or without him, depending on the package they get back, but if they deal him, it’s a sign that THEY don’t think they can contend next year.
- bobMike,
In my view Marco Scutaro has (at least thus far) produced the best offensive season by a Blue Jays shortstop since Octavio Antonio Fernandez in 1993. My question(s) – do you agree, and if not, which of the many gentlemen in between would you say generated a better result?
Thanks
MW: I’d have to really look, but it certainly does feel that way right now. Maybe Tony Batista that one year.
- Sam Rothsteinif the jays get good package for halladay will the jays still contend next year or is it the eventual re-build?
MW: See above.
- mikeAccording to Todd Zolecki, an MLB blogger:
http://zozone.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/07/another_thing_to_consider_abou.html
If Halladay is traded, he an opt out of his contract at the end of the season. That could greatly hurt his trade value.
If this MLB rule does, in fact, exist, I cannot see any team offering a “blow-my-socks-off” proposal for Roy.
MW: It’s true, that rule is there. If no team offers such a proposal, then Halladay stays here.
- Alan the stat geekhow bout this trade for Doc,
Toronto Blue Jays
-Tommy Hanson
-Brian McCann
Atlanta Braves
-Roy Halladay
-throw in borderline prospect
MW: Not bad, but I don’t know if that’s quite enough. It is if Hanson is as good as everyone thinks, though.
- Jazzre:comment 47
Well you can be finished as a manager and still be in charge..The Blue Jays won’t fire him midway through the season..They haven’t done that through their history..Stick a fork in this guy cause he is done and allowing him to trade Halladay is insanity..He would most certainly mess it up..
If he isn’t, then why not sign him to an extension?..His time here has been putrid..None of his teams have competed in any way and all his so called plans have fizzled..How many more plans is he gonna have?
What happened to the latest plan?..Make it though this year and compete in 2010?..Does that include trading the best pitcher in baseball??..
Even the dumbest dummy on planet earth could draft a few good players with 400 picks..Why is it he gets all the kudos for Hill and some of the pitchers but a free pass when it comes to success as a team?…I don’t get it…
MW: Check the archives.
- ray bThe Jays take two from Boston, World Series here we come.
But seriously, it will be sad to see Halladay go, should the Jays decide to move him. What a waste, to have one of the best players in all of baseball for so long and to fail to make a serious run in even one of his seasons here. He deserves better, and if he goes, I’ll be the one in the stands cheering for Roy every time he comes back to the Rogers Centre to beat the Jays.
MW: I certainly hope that if Halladay were to get traded that he’d get a fantastic response every time he came back here to pitch against the Jays.
- Terry BradleyI have been privileged to see Halladay pitch two times over the last two years. He is about half way to a Hall of Fame career. This Friday night against Tampa Bay could be his last start as a Blue Jay in Toronto. If you want to see some history, come out. I am going to try to make it to the game.
MW: Do, or do not. There is no try.
- Tim MNotwithstanding my comments above, I believe the Blue Jays “have to” trade Halladay. Personally, I believe 50% of MLB teams should be focusing on surviving as businesses for the next few years. The Jays are one of those teams. Luckily, they get 18 home games every year against the Yankees and Red Sox to help fill the stands. They have the entire Canadian TV market to themselves and they are in North America’s 4th largest metro media market. Still this isn’t the NHL or even the NFL, this is baseball. The Jays need to control costs, while investing in their long term viability. They can’t spend themselves into bankruptcy. Let the other teams do that. They need to be ready for the free agency market collapse. That means trading high salaries and uneconomical contracts. Halladay, Scutaro, Rolen, Overbay, Barajas and maybe Wells/Rios. Load this team up with young talent for 2011 and beyond. Success in the future will go to the teams who gave themselves financial flexibility.
- Tim M@#47: ray b:
You ask if the Jays will allow a GM on his way out to make the biggest trade in Blue Jays history. The short answer is yes. Why? Because they’re not going to make a new GM’s first order of business be the Halladay situation. Wouldn’t it be better for the new guy to get a clean slate once all that is dealt with? They’ll let JP make the move and he’ll forever be known, fairly or unfairly, as the GM who traded Roy Halladay. It’s much better to have the fans revolt against an outgoing GM, than it is to saddle the new guy with native unrest. Whatever the Jays get back, it won’t be enough to satisfy the angry hordes who will surely want blood. Let the new guy come in when the Jays have turned the page on this chapter in their history and allow him to start fresh.
As for Wells no, unfortunately he is not one of the best CF in baseball. Not even close. No offense, but I think you’re stuck in 2006. He was an elite level CF that year and that year only, according to the numbers. He was right there just a tick below Grady Sizemore, Carlos Beltran and Andruw Jones (speaking of meltdowns). That season (2006), he absolutely warranted a $20 million contract. He hadn’t really before and unfortunately, he certainly hasn’t since. He’s had some awful luck with injuries the last three years (labrum/rotator cuff thingy, broken wrist, balky hamstring; maybe more, but I can’t remember) and according to the numbers it’s really cut into his defense over that time. His hitting rebounded last year from 2007, only to go back into the deep freeze again this year and more alarmingly his defense continues to decline sharply.
Unfortunately, you could make the case that he’s the worst overall (taking offense and defense into account) regular CF in baseball this year, and I emphasize this year because I don’t believe it’s over for Vernon. Maybe that’s me the fan talking because I don’t want it to be over because gosh darn it I like the guy. Maybe it’s because I want to see him stick it to all the haters and come back from what has to be considered a career low-point. Whatever the case may be I’ll be rooting for him to turn it around.
What else you gonna do? The contract is completely untradeable. At this point in time, I think you’d need to include 2 Halladays in order to offload it on another team in order to get something back in terms of decent prospects. We all know there will only ever be one Halladay. Booing Wells won’t help you or him, unless you really enjoy being negative, then by all means be my guest. You paid good money for those tickets, you can do as you please. Why not find something about the game to enjoy instead of nitpicking the guy who’s making the most money?
I mean what was he supposed to say when Paul Godfrey (I doubt it was JP) offered him all that money? “Gosh golly gee whiz Paul, that offer’s swell, but according to all the stats geeks out there, I’m only worth about $10-$12 million per year, I can’t accept that, it’s too much.” Yeah right, and the next thing you know Donald Fehr’s on the phone screaming blue bloody murder and his agent is out the door and down the street. I will hope against hope for a miracle turnaround from him and try to focus on other areas of the team that aren’t as disappointing. You do what you gotta do.
In closing this missive Mr. Wilner, I gotta say that is one heckuva 1 hour all baseball and nothing else (unless idiot callers insist on bringing hockey into the conversation ;) ) programme you put on each and every week day between noon and 1 pm. It is absolutely required listening for baseball fans not only in this market, but all around the globe and you have no excuse for missing it because every show is available at fan590.com. I love the Joe Sheehan segments and I hope you can use them to break down peoples fears of the use of numbers and their “dehumanizing” “robotic” “punchcard” effect on the game. They’re none of those things. They’re just tools you can use to analyze the game more intelligently. Don’t allow your fear of numbers to stop you from a better understanding of the best game in the world people.
Finally (since I don’t post that often), I just want to say re: the next GM that unlike many of the critics on this site who call JP a “Moneyball” GM, (and many worse things) like it’s an insult to say that someone looks for market inefficiencies, I think he’s actually more of a traditional scout type GM and that the local writers who associated him with Joe Morgan’s all-time favourite book mistakenly concluded that he was a sabermetrics GM and ran with it, which is lazy “journalism”. He was done from day 1 on the job. He didn’t help his cause with his forthrightness or what some would call brusqueness, but he was on their bad side from the get go. I really don’t see much evidence of sabermetrics in a lot of the moves he’s made. In fact a lot of them run counter to the number crunchers. What I hope for in the next GM is someone who can seamlessly, effortlessly fuse together both traditional old school GMship with the various metrics that are out there for verification. Sometimes the eyes lie and sometimes the numbers lie, but with the proper blend I like to think that you can come up with a panoramic view of a player or at least fill in the blind spots in both types of systems.
- Tom the InternMike, I think your answer to Post #53 illustrates the real dilemma in this whole situation, to wit: the proposed trade is good “if (insert prospect name(s) here) is as good as everyone thinks he is”!
The problem is that there is no way to know “how good” player x, y and z will be.
Of course, there is also no way to know how long Roy will continue to be the Roy we all know, but his history is pretty good. On balance I think I’d rather take my chances on keeping Roy rather than the other uncertainty.
Knowing how hard Roy works, and how well he takes care of himself, I like the chances of getting at least 3 more great years from him (beyond 2010) with some “good” years even after that. Given a proper level of ownership commitment, that should be enough time to “build a winner”. I believe the Jays should try real hard to extend Roy’s present contract.
In the event that that is not possible (for whatever reason), then my vote would be to “stay the course”, at least until this time next year. If by then the Jays still have not shown/are not showing signs of contending, then re-evaluate, even knowing that the mid-2010 package you get back may not be quite as good as it would be now.
MW: They have to do more around Halladay in order to get him to want a contract extension.
- NormEricHinski has 4 home in 5 at bats with the Yanks. What are the chances we can trade Halladay to the Yankees and somehow get Hinske back in Toronto?
MW: First, Hinske has four homers in 15 at-bats with New York. Second, if the Jays ever trade Roy Halladay to the Yankees with the specific goal of getting Hinske coming the other way, the team should just fold.
- dave_12Just reading the Jays forums, I get the sense most fans don’t trust that Riccardi can make a decent deal involving Halladay. Maybe it’s best they wait until Riccardi is gone.
MW: It doesn’t really matter what the fans think.
- dave_12re- comment#58..
Just curious how you were able to comment on my article before it was posted..
Anyway, the fact that the Jays are thinking about trading Halladay is Riccardi’s fault..He signed Wells to this bloated contract..I’ve heard the rumors that it was Godfrey who signed Wells but the Jays under Ridiculousli are hardly honest about anything..
Why not wait for a new GM?..The organization could sell this guy and maybe the fans won”t rebel as much about the trade..
Trading the best pitcher in baseball is hardly starting with a clean slate..More like an empty slate..
Riccardi will most certainly mess it up…He has messed up this organization enough with his bonehead signings and payouts..His promises and plans change quicker then a convict picking up the soap in the shower..
He hasn’t made a trade of this magnitude in this life..Who is to say he can get full value?
MW: I reply to all the comments before they’re posted. If the people in charge felt the way you do, Ricciardi would have been fired a while ago.
- r_bruwer@#62:
Your comment has a time stamp 13 hours before mine and it had already been posted, so I was able to read it and respond to it. Don’t worry, I’m not psychic or anything like that. ;)
You can believe what you want to about the Wells signing. It’s a free country. I believe that the Jays upper management, meaning Godfrey and above made a panic move because they were worried about a fan backlash and its effect on season ticket sales, should they allow the “face of the franchise” to walk away. You cannot operate a sports franchise if you’re in perpetual fear of how the fans are gonna react to the moves you make, even moves that involve franchise players. Look where that got the Leafs (sorry Mike, hockey reference, but bear with me) with Mats Sundin. They knew the day was coming when he would either retire or become a free agent. But, they waited and waited and waited, until his value had dropped a ton and then he kinda screwed them over by not waiving his no-trade clause, but they put themselves in that position by delaying the inevitable and deluding themselves into thinking they could contend with that core group.
The Jays’ organization has been fearful of fan backlash for far too long now and that is a large reason why they’re kind of stuck in limbo. Another reason, which McCown has absolutely nailed over the past week or so, is that there’s some organizational paralysis due to the fact that there’s been no sighting of a Beeston replacement yet. If you hire a new GM now and then Beeston finds his replacement in the offseason and the new president doesn’t agree with the Beest’s GM hire, you’ve got yourself an untenable situation. You either give this brand new GM his walking papers (the Rogers beancounters won’t appreciate that very much) and pay out his 3+ year contract and say thanks but no thanks, which gives your organization a bad rep around the league, particularly with potential new GM candidates OR you keep him on and have a president and GM who don’t see eye to eye. Neither is very appealing if you’re interested in the long term success of the Jays.
Unfortunately for all of us as fans Doc is not coming back after 2010 regardless of how much we fall all over ourselves to get him. 1) He wants to win and quite frankly I think it’s kind of selfish of us as fans to stand in the way of that wish, particularly when you consider not only what he’s done on the field for us, but the loyalty, commitment and dedication he has shown to the organization over the years. 2) I don’t think his value post-deadline will be higher than it is right now, given the fact that the acquiring team gets a shot at two stretch runs and potentially two World Series with him. 3) Yes, trading Roy Halladay for prospects is a huge gamble for the Jays, but it’s also a gamble for the team that gets him. Nothing is guaranteed on either side. I know Roy works extremely hard and is in great shape, but he’s a pitcher. They do get hurt you know, particularly as they get older – even the “robotic” ones like Roy. 4) Realistically, the Jays probably won’t contend this year or next with or without him. It’s the sad truth. So why not trade Doc, Rolen, Downs, Frasor, etc. and anybody else that you feel is not going to be a big part of the team from 2011 forward for some good young bats (badly needed) and some more good young pitching because you can never have enough of it? You take what you get back and add it to Hill, Lind, Snider, Cecil, and Romero and there could be the makings of a pretty good core of young players there.
What’s done is done. Could JP have done better as a GM? Sure, but I think he has demonstrated an ability to learn from his mistakes, which is all you can ask of a 1st time GM. Could he have done better from a PR sense? Yes, there’s lots of room for improvement there, but you’ll notice there’s no Wednesdays with JP this year, so he can’t trip himself up. He says what’s on his mind and I’m sure he’d love to have quite a few do-overs, but life doesn’t work that way. Could the injuries have been any worse? Well yeah, but probably not much. I mean injuries can always get worse, but this last three years or so has been kind of nutso.
Like I said in the above post (#58), let JP deal with this stuff now and then you can hang on him the label of the GM who traded Roy freakin’ Halladay. But for goodness sake, don’t make the new guy be the one that incites the natives and make them beat a path to his door armed with pitchforks and torches. That’s a horrible thing to have to deal with for any new guy, regardless of his experience. Whatever you think of JP, believe it or not 1) He probably wants to (and will) work in baseball again at some point after 2010. 2) He’s not gonna try and submarine this team and leave it hamstrung for years. He’s gonna try and do what’s best for the Jays long term. 3) He’s an average major league GM, who is perhaps better suited to being a team’s farm director or scouting director or assistant GM. Unfortunately for him and us, in today’s AL East unless you have a massive payroll (which the Jays don’t and probably won’t for the foreseeable future) you need a GM who’s in the top 10% and they don’t exactly grow on trees, which makes them kinda hard to find. The ones you do find are usually already employed by other teams and very difficult to pry away. Cheers,
MW: The only thing I’d change is that Ricciardi only has 1+ years left on his contract, not 3+.
- Tom the InternMike, Tom will probably respond for himself, but I think his reference to “3+ years” was in respect to the (potential) new GM, not to JP.
- NormMike,
Norm is correct sir. As the quote: “You either give this brand new GM his walking papers…and pay out his 3+ year contract.” The brand new GM would refer to the hypothetical new GM that Beeston according to a lot of Jays’ fans should’ve hired yesterday. You’d have to give him at least 3 years on his deal in order to bring him here and then if Beeston hires his own replacement and this new president doesn’t approve of Beeston’s choice for GM, you’ve got big problems. You either send the just signed GM away with a boatload of money or you go forward with a president and GM that don’t see eye to eye. Neither situation would be a good thing for the Jays or their fans. This was in response to the original poster’s comment that Halladay should be the first order of business for the new GM i.e. in the post-Ricciardi era.
I either didn’t make that clear enough or you’ve been overwhelmed with mostly negative comments and misinterpreted what I said. Either way, it’s cool.
MW: I’ll take the hit on that one. Sorry to impugn you.
- Tom the Intern