12:00 AM Eastern
Well, that certainly wasn’t the way Scott Downs wanted to celebrate his return to the active roster.
Downs came on in a tie game in the bottom of the 9th with a runner on second and two out, walked Carlos Pena and gave up a game-winning single to right-centre by Ben Zobrist – the second straight game that Tampa Bay has walked off and the third time in the last five games that the Blue Jays have lost in such fashion.
It was a marathon – over four hours of baseball in a game that didn’t even go into extra innings – mostly because of the struggles of the starting pitchers. For the third time in his breakthrough season, Brian Tallet was just plain awful, giving up eight runs on 11 hits in his three-plus innings of work – he only walked two, but one of them was B.J. Upton to lead off the ballgame. And in a brilliant feat of derring-do, Upton stole home on a Tallet throw-over to first to check on Carl Crawford with two out.
Scott Kazmir was almost as ineffective as Tallet, but he lasted longer, taking it into the 7th and allowing seven runs on nine hits, including big home runs to Adam Lind and Vernon Wells.
Credit the Jays for coming back after the Rays went up 5-2 in the third, and again Zobrist’s three-run homer in the 4th put the Rays on top 8-5. They put together a three-run 7th inning to tie the score, but couldn’t push across the go-ahead run when they had two on and one out in the 8th with the 3-4 hitters coming up.
With Tallet having to leave in the 4th and Shawn Camp, Brandon League and Jeremy Accardo all unavailable, Cito Gaston had to stretch the bullpen, but it was his freshest arm that failed him. Granted, Downs hadn’t pitched for 2 1/2 weeks, so maybe he was too fresh.
The Jays are now 1-5 on this road trip, with Roy Halladay set to take the ball in the finale against young phenom-who-throws-too-many-pitches David Price. We’re on the air with it at noon Eastern.
I was extremely surprised this afternoon when I learned that the Jays had released B.J. Ryan, swallowing nearly $15 million to just get the guy to leave. We had been discussed Ryan’s issues for a while here on the ol’ blogaroo, and the last thing I said was that I thought they’d hold onto him through the end of July, then try to get someone to Randy Myers him on recallable waivers in early August.
I’m assuming they considered that course of action, but figured that: A – they couldn’t afford to go a man short in the bullpen for the rest of the month, since there was no situation with which they trusted Ryan on the mound, and 2 – they knew that no one would possibly bite.
So Ryan leaves, with the Blue Jays not really swallowing $15 million, but closer to double that, since he only had two effective seasons for the $47 million, five-year contract he was given back in November of 2005. Granted, one of those seasons was as dominant as any that any Jays reliever has ever had, and the other one was very solid, but it’s still a horrendous return on their investment.
There will be no tag days for Ryan, no tears shed. The Jays’ clubhouse will be a friendlier place now, media-wise – though his teammates most certainly loved the guy – and the Blue Jays are much better served without him at this point.
I’m sure the J.P. haters will use this move as more ammunition, but the thing about big gambles is that they don’t always work. Ricciardi has won a lot more of those gambles than he has lost, the problem is that the big ones stick out – like Ryan, Frank Thomas and Luke Prokopec.
Here’s tonight’s edition of The JaysTalk, for your listening pleasure:
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With the noon Eastern start, there’s no Baseball Today tomorrow, but that show will be back on Friday with some fine baseball guestage.
Rational, reasonable comments are always welcome!
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Why is it it seems that every game against tbay, crawford scores the winning run!!!!
- tito“There will be no tag days for Ryan, no tears shed. The Jays’ clubhouse will be a friendlier place now, media-wise”
What’s the worst thing he’s done/said to you?
Thanks.
MW: There’s no point in getting into that.
- Ryan McCallenFirst Thomas and now Ryan, no wonder JP has not signed any free agents recently he has to pay players to leave. Maybe JP could ask the Government for a stimulus package, I think he read the General Motors manual on how to run a company.
- jason c wLike your new show. Nice to hear some baseball talk instead of hockey.
I have read that JP will not allow a team a window to work out an extension with Doc. Why would he do this, and does this not lower the trade value?
MW: Halladay is still under contract for another year and a half. If a team wants to lock him up long-term, they can try to do it after they trade for him. Ricciardi doesn’t think Halladay would lock up that quickly.
- sandyHonestly, is Cito the worse ingame manager in the big leagues today? The decisons he makes just make you scratch your head. There was no reason to throw Tallet in there when the Jays once the game. Even then, there was no reason to let him face an All-Star in Zobrist. Sometimes a pitcher just doesnt have it but Cito tries to force it.
Same thing with League last night. How many times has League looked terrific in one inning just before blowing up when allowed to go out again. In fact, League has allowed at least 12 ER in 14 2/3 innings in games when he pitches for a second inning.
Could someone please show Cito these numbers
MW: At least 12 earned runs? That’s not exactly compelling. Lemme look it up………….here we go: Since May 1st, in the inning in which he was brought into the game, League has 21 1/3 IP with a WHIP of 1.125, an ERA of 1.69, 18 strikeouts and one home run allowed. Sometimes he goes into the dugout and sits and watches while the Jays hit, then comes out to throw some more. When that happens, in that next inning of work, he’s thrown 6 1/3 innings with a WHIP of 3.000, an ERA of 18.47, six strikeouts and three home runs allowed. Now THAT’S compelling. I don’t know where you got that 14 2/3 innings, though, the number for the entire season is 9 1/3.
- anonymousIf JP trades Halladay, doesn’t that put an end to 2010 hopes? If it does, then doesn’t a successful Halladay trade mean that Rolen, Scutaro, Overbay are also on the trade block? Really the Jays are building for 2011 and 2012 with Halladay gone. Rolen & Scutaro are both probably at the top of their trade value right now.
MW: A Halladay trade wouldn’t necessarily pull the plug on 2010, it would depend on who came back the other way. But if they’ve pulled the plug on 2009, Scutaro should be dealt, since he’s a free agent after this season. Rolen and Overbay should be dangled as well.
- Tim MBummer to see BJ leave. The Jays pretty much paid 47 million for two good years.
Hypothetically, if BJ starts pounding the strike zone again, and the Jays manage to sign him to a league minimum contract and decide to trade him at the deadline, does his old contract come off the books? I know it’s unlikely, but I’m just trying to figure out if there’s any possible way to avoid paying a waived player.
Thanks
MW: That contract no longer exists, it’s been paid out. There’s no way for the Jays to get out of paying him. And it’s not a bummer to see B.J. leave, it’s a bummer that he pitched so badly that the Jays are better off paying him to go away.
- James from MississaugaHey Mike
I need clarification on something please.
A few months ago you dismissed one of my points on the blog that the Wells contract could very well prevent the Jays from coming up with the cash for Doc. In post #64 yesterday, you stated that ” Halladay will get Santana money, which the Jays won’t be able to do unless they deal Wells which is unlikely”. So you now agree that the Wells contract will be a huge factor in retaining Doc?
Thanks,
MW: Noooooooo. Go back and read that comment again.
- rickHey Mike
Regarding BJ Ryan, do you agree with releasing him? I have been saying all along that he has no business pitching in the majors right now, but releasing him now could have been a mistake.
There is at least a slim chance he could have regained his control/velo and become effective once again.
I don’t believe BJ will rebound, but since they are not contending this year anyway, wouldn’t they have been better off keeping him around in the hopes that he strings together a half dozen good outings, and then try and move him? At least then they wouldn’t be on the hook for all that cash.
Thanks,
MW: The answer to your question is in the post on which you’re commenting.
- rickMike – Hi there. Before my question, I just want to say that I live in NY and I listen to a lot of baseball talk on the radio here. We have some excellent baseball radio personalities in NY. You would fit in very well here – you are a very sharp analyst. Keep up the good work.
Now here are my questions -
1. I am a fan of JP’s. I met him in Boston a few years ago and he was a gentleman. I also like the work he has done with stockpiling very good pitching talent – the starting rotation and especially the bullpen. But, he hasn’t had the same success with the acquisition of hitters. Why is that? What is your analysis on that?
2. You have said a few times on your shows recently to not expect the Tampa Bay Rays to get back to the playoffs. And you said it with remarkable certitude. Care to explain yourself? Last time I checked they were one of the best teams in baseball and are 10-8 against the Big Two, have a long pipeline of pitching AND hitting talent in the minors, and are the defending the AL Champs. Don’t they deserve a bit more respect from a respected baseball analyst like yourself?
3. You said that you think the Jays will contend next year. And you said within a few seconds of that statement that if the Jays were in any other division, they’d be in the playoffs nearly every year. Are we not going to be in the same division next year, Mike? I am not trying to pick a fight with you … it just doesn’t make sense to this frustrated Blue Jays fan. I don’t want to hear the division and the injury excuse anymore. Please … no more “if we were in the AL Central” crap. That’s part of the unique challenge of the Blue Jays and they have not responded to it. There is no complete commitment to winning in this division if there is a built in excuse. You cannot accomplish a goal if the “AL East” excuse is part of the process.
Keep up the good work. How can I listen to your Baseball Today show in the evenings? I don’t know what a “Podcast” is.
MW: 1 – I think the idea was to stockpile as much good pitching as possible, with the thought that you can always trade good pitching for good hitting, but the opposite doesn’t necessarily hold. The problem is that the good, young pitching has kept getting hurt, and maybe that they’ve fallen in love with some of the upper-tier prospects and so not moved them when they had the chance. 2 – I think my stance against the Rays is the same as my stance against Derek Jeter. I try to be the lone reasoned voice in the wilderness, and it gets taken as too harsh the other way. The Rays won the division last year because of a shutdown bullpen that had no reason to be that good and because of a lot of luck in one-run games. They’re not the Red Sox and Yankees. 3 – I’m sorry that you’re sick of the fact that the Jays are in the AL East, but that’s reality. Until MLB smartens up and either balances the schedule or gets rid of the divisions or both, the Jays will be in very, very tough to make the playoffs. So will the Rays and Orioles. There’s a reason that only once has a team other than Boston or New York made the playoffs out of the AL East in the last 10 years, and if you want to ignore that, that’s up to you.
- T from NYHey Mike. I have a personal question for you… Don’t worry! I know you say its better to not get to high when the Jays are winning but don’t get too low when the Jays are losing, but how do you sound so mild mannered after a yackfest like we have had these few days? I just drank 3 beers in an hour trying to get over all this crap with BJ and all the losing! Does it really bother you during the game or are your nails just as long regardless of how bad they just did. I would like to be able to stay as even tempo as you sound after a bad game. FYI I won’t call in when my blood is boiling so don’t worry about answering my calls in the future. If I made a spelling error its because I had a few Dos Equis. Stay thirsty Mike!
MW: I sound so calm because I realize that it’s a 162-game schedule and I understand what the Blue Jays are up against. I wouldn’t be able to do my job if I was bouncing off the walls when the Jays go 27-14 and was down in the dumps when they reverse that. I’d drive myself crazy.
- Matt from BCHey Mike
If the Jays end up dealing Halladay, do you think there will be other moves to follow? Management suggested that in 2010 they would have a contending team, but without Doc it is extremely unlikely. I’m not suggesting a complete tear down, but what about seeing whats available for Rolen or Scutaro. Rolen’s stock may never be this high again, and he still is a bit of an injury risk.
- rickHey Mike one thing I fail to understand about dropping BJ Ryan is the money aspect of things. The team talks publicly all the time about not being able to spend money and all that jazz yet they’ve paid in the vicinity of 20 million for Thomas and Ryan to sit at home. If they’ll pay someone to not play because they think it helps them win how about paying someone that WILL play to help them win. This just seems like a ridiculous amount of money to swallow from a team that only signed one big league contract this off season to the juggernaut Jose Bautista…
And also this road trip has been painful, it seems as if no matter what the scenario is in a game this team is finding a way to lose games, hopefully we don’t end up seeing a walk off balk during the trip
MW: I think you’re confusing the Bautista thing. They weren’t talking about not being able to spend money when they signed Ryan and Thomas.
- Alex DineleyHello Mike!
Ok, I have a question regarding Mr.Halladay.
Let’s say the Blue Jays feel like scheming. Do you think this following situation could ever happen….
So it is approaching the trade deadline, and other GM’s hear that JP will be taking Roy offers seriously. (They probably already knew that) Now JP gets a few offers he finds interesting, but at the same time he would obviously not want to give up such a great player. With this, he goes and talks to Roy and says something along these lines… I have gotten some good offers from some top teams in this league and am thinking about trading you. How would you like it if i let you go for the rest of this year and the next to let you have a little better chance at winning a world series while we get a TON back. When your contract is over we will give you a generous contract and you can come back to our organization.
Roy agrees and the Blue Jays go on to win the world series in 2011!
Now are the chances of this happening as bad as i think they are? (minus the chances of winning the world series haha) This is just an idea i thought of one night, would be cool if it could work.
MW: I don’t think it would be possible to set up something like that a year and a half in advance.
- Kamran KaramchiOuch, Mike. Ouch. Swallowing $15 million for B.J.. Couldn’t they have kept him? Really, I thought the strategy for the club was to take a bit of a hit this year, and then go for it in 2010 and 2011. They may need that $10 million for next year. No chance they could keep throwing him out there and see if he can’t put it together, at least until the end of the year? Releasing him now really only helps them this year somewhat but hurts them next. Sometimes I don’t know the strategy of the club.
Well, this is something you are going to have to contend with until a) the Jays get into the playoffs, or b) JP is gone; just like Frank Thomas, Shannon Stewart/Reed Johnson, and Ricky Romero/Troy Tulowitzki.
I agree the Jays are frustrating, but it seems they have some really good pieces. I remember reading a quote from one of the opposing players a couple of years ago that the Jays have a great deal of talent, but “don’t know how to win.” How much merit do you put into a statement like this and what does it mean exactly?
Thanks, Mike!
MW: I don’t put any merit into that statement, partly because I doubt the person who said it could even explain what it means. I don’t understand your point about the Jays maybe needing Ryan’s $10 million next season, though. That money was going to Ryan anyway, it’s not like they would have had access to it had they not released him.
- RoryOn Halladay’s trade value (a touch nerdy). http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/roy-halladays-trade-value
The conclusion is 3 high level prospects, just outside the top tier, where the top tier is David Price like.
Halladay may be worth even more than that to the Jays. There is no “2010 is the year” selling point without Halladay. Possibly leading to a massive drop in revenues.
MW: More than a touch nerdy, but cool.
- MarkHi Mike
When looking at the Jays roster and their history, the Jays have some really good players and for some reasons in the last four years, they have not been able to put it together. This recent 40 games was a prime example. When the pitching was working, the hitting was not and it also worked the other way around.
The mark of a good team is that they find ways to win. The Jays version of 92 & 93 were like that. The Yankees and Red Sox are those type of teams.
It is tough to compete with teams with unlimited budget. When these teams made bad signing, it is no big deal to right it. They just write the deal off and spend more money on free agents. Jays cannot afford to do that. If JP had Yankees money, if Rios and Wells kept playing they did the first 3 months, he would simply write off these players and sign free agents next year. In short, JP must almost be perfect with every move he makes.
My suggestion to ail Jays cure is perhaps to trade some of their players one for one, a Hill for a Kinsler, an Overbay for a Huff just to change the chemistry of the players.
Great Jays talk last night by the way, some good thought provoking discussions, you had the ‘idiot filter’ working well since they didn’t seem to get through last night
Francis
- francisHey Mike,
Is JP responsible for the scouting team or do they get hired by others and report to him???
The reason I ask, is the JP haters, I am as well, blame JP for the lousy drafting. Maybe the problem is the Jays scouting and talent team?
Granted, not all drafts have been bad, and the Rolen trade is his best.Not to often you get to see a third baseball of this quality everyday.!!
Thanks Mike.
MW: J.P. Ricciardi has hired the scouts, the lousy drafting of players like Hill, Lind, Marcum, Romero, Janssen, Snider, Graham Godfrey, Kristian Bell, Bubbie Buzachero, etc. Remember how much people were blasting the Rolen/Glaus deal a year ago as a huge mistake by JP?
- ChrisTough call for JP to outright release Ryan? I don’t think he had any choice in the matter. Even waiting another couple of weeks for more of the same would not have good for either party.
Having said that, a big guy like Ryan just may take a lot longer to recover from his surgery than others would. I would bet he will hook up with another team and be an effective pitcher again by next season. Being away from the game on a day to day basis – no pressure etc. will give BJ the chance to be positive and really work on his return to form.
If JP does deal Doc, and if the Yankees push hard to get him I could see the Red Sox parting with Buchholz as part of a package deal to stop that trade to NY!
If a deal is struck up between JP and the Red Sox I’d say, look also for Russ Admas heading to “Bean Town” as part of a blockbuster deal. Of course Philly is the most likely place Doc would end up! Don’t discount JP and his connection to Boston as to getting a deal done there. AL east team or not!
One thing for sure the Red Sox or Philly have more to offer than do the Yankees. Further to that if a deal for the Doc is done – it moves whoever the team is, a giant step closer to winning a WS title.
Some real tough recent losses for the Jays. At least 5 or 6 games that could have gone either way. They are where we expected them to be – however things could be getting a bit messy with all this talk of trading Doc etc. Money talks and the Jays seem like they may be heading for a bit of a crunch that way.
Thanks.
MW: Why would you think that Adams would be moved in a trade with the Red Sox?
- Bob from BurlingtonMike,
I think that the lack of direction that people where talking about last night was more referring to the actual ownership of Rogers.
They decided to let go of their president, bring in a long term temporary replacement, and do not seem to be to interested in filling the position.
On the Eve of free agency, they decide to cut payroll, which left JP with no ammo to replace Marcum, Burnett and McGown.
I think most of the issues that JP has had has more to do with the lack of plan by those above JP, they seem to be consistently changing the way that they want to do business.
MW: They didn’t let the president go, he quit.
- SeanWhat was Jessie doing on the bench? Is he with the team or was it a one off as he is local?
MW: He’s with the team while they’re in Tampa Bay, because he lives in the area and is rehabbing in Dunedin.
- Mark MurphyMike,
I really don’t get why the Jays didn’t play a little hard ball with BJ. Make him try to work things out in the minors this season and see if an off-season of rest and work will help him regain velocity. Remember, he had TJS so it could be a case where he does regain velocity 2.5 years after surgery. It’s happened many times before with other plays where they have a poor first season after the surgery then everything goes back to normal the following year. BJ came back early from the surgery so perhaps this is his “poor” year and he rebounds next year. If he refuses, then you play hardball and say, you can retire or negotiate some sort of trade with another team in which they pick up $x millions because we (Jays) won’t simply pay you to go away (release).
MW: The only hardball they could have played was demanded that he accept a minor-league assignment.
- JoachimWhy isn’t Scott Rolen on the All-Star roster?
MW: Because he wasn’t selected to play in the game by the fans, the players, or the committee made up of Joe Maddon and the Commissioner’s office representatives.
- Gruntledwhen tallet is good hes SO good. when hes bad hes SO bad.. wheres the middle Mike? where?
MW: There isn’t one. The good thing is that he’s only not been SO good three times.
- ajHello Mike, I have a complaint, & a few questions…Just 2 change things up, my complaint is actually not about the Jays. Last night’s game with Tallet starting, you probably didn’t see, since you were working, but TSN only showed one pitch from the final two hitters the usually camera angle, which is from the pitchers mound looking towards the catcher & hitter. The camera angle of the last two hitters of the game was from the backstop/catcher looking outwards towards the whole field. I guess they wanted to show the baserunner, which was Carl Crawford. This annoyed the hell out of me & I’m pretty sure I’m not the only fan that thinks this when watching the end of that game. I don’t mind it when they show this view/ camera angle a few times over the course of the game but to show it to two whole at-bats at the most important part of the game just infuriates me. I was actually more angry at TSN at the end of the game than the Jays loosing. There was two out, I don’t care about any base runners. I want to see the pitch, location & what the batter does. Your view on this is probably differnt since you are always at the games but for a fan whole catches baseball games a lot, it’s a big pet peeve. So, if you have an e-mail, mailing address to TSN so I can file a complaint, that would be appreciated ’cause it’s not on their website.
My question to you is if you think the Philles are willing to part with their great prospects for Halladay since I heard they have one of the best farm systems in the league. Gillick is also the GM there so he has a good relationship with the Jays. I heard Kyle Drabek is pretty good but I read he had Tommy John surgery so I don’t get why his stock is so high. Would you say he is a better pitching prospect than Stephan Strasburg??…Other gems Phillies have in their farm system are Jason Mcdonald & Dominic Brown…I don’t know too much about them so I wonder if you know how good these players are??…Do you think the Phillies are willing to part with them in a deal for Halladay & do you think the Jays should do it for any of these players?? Meaning, the Phillies using one or more of these players as their backbone in a multi player package for Halladay. Anyways, keep up the good work mike…ttyl
MW: First of all, there’s only one “o” in the word “lose”. I have no avenue for you to complain about TSN’s camera angles. I can’t imagine why you thought this was the appropriate place to bring that up. From what I’ve heard, the Phillies consider Kyle Drabek to be untouchable, which to me would be a non-starter. If I’m talking to a team about Roy Halladay and they tell me that a prospect is untouchable, then I’m telling them that they can call me back when they’re willing to actually talk about Roy Halladay.
- David F“Ricciardi has won a lot more of those gambles than he has lost, the problem is that the big ones stick out – like Ryan, Frank Thomas and Luke Prokopec.”
If you’re classifying Downs, Overbay, and Rolen as upside “gambles” then acknowledge the long list of garbage:
Thomson. Ohka. Towers. Zambrano (Victor). Eckstein. Stewart 2.0. Estalella. Huckaby. Marvin freakin’ Bedard. Clayton. Hinske. Hentgen. Batista. Koch. Wilkerson. Mench. Kielty.
Simply amazing!
MW: I had totally forgotten about the greatness that was Marvin Benard. Kielty wasn’t garbage, he was picked up so that the Jays could get Ted Lilly – that was actually a terrific move. All the other ones cost the Blue Jays almost nothing, they’re the roster filler that every team has.
- TommyIf the jays choose to trade halladay this year, then it would seem sensible to trade overbay and rolen as well. Do the Jays have good options internally in your opinion to fill 1st and 3rd next year? I guess i am asking about guys like emaus, dopirak, Campbell and whoever i am forgetting.
MW: None of those guys are good options for next year.
- jeremymichael,
based on this tough monetary decision on one b.j. ryan by the organization, if you had to guess don’t you think it’s likely plan A was to send him down to casino town & give him all the work & time he might need to right himself but he in turn probably declined the invitation?
odd to me if not cause’ it sure seems that would have made the most sense for all involved… the team & manager, organization & of course ryan himself.
MW: That may have been what happened.
- darrell bishopBad luck,that is all I can say about the past few games the jays have lost, I don’t want to say this is a sign to blow the whole thing up like Burke is doing with the leafs. Maybe the jays can pull off a win streak like Oakland did a few years back when they won 21 in a row but I guess I am the crazy optimist in that sense. All the players who were injured recently could come back in the second half and if Marcum is back in August and if they don’t trade Halladay I still think they have a shot at the wildcard. Am I crazy Mike? or is the light at the end of the tunnel completely faded for the jays on the 2009 season?
MW: There are 75 games left, so there’s still some light at the end of the tunnel, and it may not be a train, but the odds are very low indeed that the Jays can win the wild card this season.
- RoyceI read some of your responses to blogs yesterday. I agree that Rolen is hugely trade marketable right now. What type of return would you expect if the Jays attempted to bundle Rolen and Halladay together? What if the Jays offered Halladay to the Mets, but also bundled either Wells or Rios as part of the package?
I think with Rios, the thinking has to be that for some reason he hasn’t been able to put it all together in a Jays uniform on a consistent basis. If they trade him and he turns into that all – star calibre player (Jayson Werth), you just have to remember that he wasn’t performing up to expectations here.
Roger Lajoie brought up a very good point at the end of the Baseball show that he hosted for you. We talk alot about the non-traditional hockey markets and there slack attendance, but look at the Jays and where they stand when it comes to attendance!! Jays were in first place and rolling earlier this year and still nobody showed up!! Toronto fans won’t show up until a winning product is put on the field, but the Jays can’t financially compete with the others in the division until people start showing up and generating the types of revenues that the Yanks and Red Sox do. It is very chicken and egg like.
The Rays are going to run into the same problem as Toronto once all their young talent becomes uncontrollable from a contract point of view.
No one has really mentioned a Halladay to the Rays trade. I think there would be some intriguing young pieces to pick up there. Who would you want in exchange from Tampa (excluding Longoria)?
MW: I don’t really want to get into who I would want from what team in a Roy Halladay trade, there are too many combinations and permutations. I think trading Rios would be a mistake.
- Aaron KerWhy did we put in that satellite dish? It’s too painful to watch these walk-offs! Mind you, it was fun when the shoe was on the other foot earlier in the season.
Mike – do you stand by your statement earlier in the season that the Jays will pay Halladay whatever is necessary to keep him post-2010?
I would hate to see him go – even for a boatload of prospects and a couple of ready to go big-leaguers. Roy’s been the face of the franchise – I really don’t want a change.
MW: I’m not as sure anymore that the Jays will back up the Brinks truck to Halladay’s place this off-season. If they don’t trade him, I’m hoping that’s still the plan.
- Ed in MuskokaKevin frickin Millar as the Jays clean-up hitter today? Are you kidding me! No wonder Doc wouldn’t mind a trade. The lineup today is atricious! The Rays 4-5 hitters have hit 40 home-runs with 105 rbis this year. The Jays 4-5? 13 home-runs with 60 rbis. Ugh.
MW: A team can’t seriously expect to win a game with Kevin Millar hitting clean-up.
- RenegadeInstead of flushing the $15 million down the toilet by releasing BJ, can’t the Jays take him off the active roster and have him throw batting practice…something he’s been really good at this season. I know…a real cheap shot. Just thought I’d try to bring some levity to a sad situation.
- Jason C.MW: The speed issue isn’t a major concern for me. I don’t think you need burners at the top of the line-up to succeed, and the single on which Hill couldn’t score yesterday was most certainly not a ground ball. I think Upton got it on its second or third hop.
There you go again, attacking the most insignificant point in an argument. The fact is that anyone in the top of the line-up should score from second on a clear single to the outfield. The lack of speed in the top of the line-up is hurting us. Tampa Bay beat us yesterday because of the speed of Upton and Crawford.
MW:The fact that you don’t think that Lind can handle the clean-up job doesn’t mean that the Jays can’t find a clean-up hitter in one of Lind and Snider. Some more left-handed bats would help, absolutely.
Lind has already shown and said that he does not relish the clean-up role, and Snyder, already with a bad back, has not shown anyone that he will be able to handle major league pitching, much less become an effective clean-up hitter.
MW: I’m sorry that none of the young arms have impressed you outside Romero, but when you consider that Cecil, Mills and Rzepczynski are 2007 draft picks pressed into too-early action in the bigs, just how impressive did you think they were going to be?
Developing pitchers takes time.
These three kids are just that – kids. Over the past few years all we have seen are kids force-fed into majors and then go down with injury. If I want to watch kids develop, I watch AAA.
MW: Papelbon and Rivera might be the two best closers in the game – one of them is the best-ever – so you’re setting the bar kind of high. That said, Scott Downs has been one of the best relievers in the game the last three years.
I am just looking at the competition. And I noticed you use the word “reliever” and not “closer” when describing Downs.
Lets face it. Richardi has spent hundreds of millions of dollars and all we have to show is a farm system with no prospects, 2007 draft picks carrying the pitching load, and success waiting on a kid with a bad back.
BTW On the plus side he did get us Scott Rolen who is the best 3RD baseman I have ever seen, is hitting up a storm, and seems to be a truely professional ballplayer!
MW: Sigh.
- Cito ManI don’t understand the people who are correlating the BJ Ryan move with Roy Halladay. They would have owed BJ the $15 million whether he was here or not – don’t people understand what a sunk cost is. Besides that BJ’s money comes off the books in 2010, before the money for a new deal with Halladay would be needed. I just don’t see how in any way the two are correlated, but now I have to listen to everyone say, “well BJ is gone so Halladay is too.”
MW: You’re exactly right.
- scottMW: “ I’m amazed. There are so many amazing defensive plays you could have pulled up from Hill, and obviously you pick the one that you believe proves your point. Of course, no need to mention that Zobrist was playing Wells almost right up the middle when he made that play, or that Hill has made all those plays you’ve clipped off Kinsler’s resume.”
Ok Mike. You want it…you got it. Here’s some of Aaron Hill’s “great” plays from MLB.com The worst part is that you are missing most of the point that I’m making. It’s not that Hill has never dove and made a play or gone up the middle to make a play. The point is that because it takes him so long to get rid of the ball (because he has pretty shaky hands and has to stand straight up to throw), Hill has to play more shallow to make plays. Therefore when he dives or goes up the middle. He is far more shallow. It’s WHERE THESES GUYS ARE ON THE FIELD WHEN THEY MAKE THE PLAY that separates them from Hill. That combined with their athletic ability to get rid of the ball faster. So here it is……
We’ll start with this “amazing” catch. Watch closely when the screen changes from the hitter to the field. Notice how shallow Hill is playing when the ball it hit (you have to watch close because it’s quick). Also notice that there is nobody on and one out. Now Billy Butler doesn’t run all that well. Why does he need to be that shallow, especially on artificial turf?
1) http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=2755952
Now if he’s back where he should be (where these other 2nd basemen would be) he would have been able to catch this ball with out diving and making it appear so “amazing”.
2) http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=2538042
Here we have another “spectacular” play by Hill. Notice again, nobody on, two out. We all remember Frank Catalanotto and that he isn’t all that fast either. Look how shallow Hill is. Look where he is on the field when he comes up with the ball. Why so shallow????? Then notice him stand straight up to throw. The other 2nd basemen I compare him too (the REALLY good ones) would backhand that ball and throw him out on the run because they are back on the grass under these circumstances. They would get rid of the ball quicker, the play wouldn’t have to look nearly so “spectacular”
-This one is particularly obvious because there is a replay that shows where he’s starting. Watch…he’s like 3 or 4 steps in from the grass/outfield line. ON ARTIFICIAL TURF!!!! WHY?
3) http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4235015
Here’s THE ONLY ONE I COULD FIND that makes him look like he can even begin to compare to the other second basemen (only because he’s back when he snares the ball). Still why did he start off so shallow? His poor positioning made this play have to be so difficult. Again, nobody on and two out. There are a whole bunch of major league (and even minor league) second basemen that would have started back at the grass line, got in front of that ball, and thrown out the runner by 2 steps.
4) http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4336019
On this one he’s actually where he should be on the field. Runner on first and one out. So he should be playing a little more shallow and closer to 2nd base (double play depth). Good play here. Credit where credit’s due.
5) http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4643979
But here we go again. Nobody on base. Look where Hill is when he dives and knocks this ball down. The worst part is if you watch closely it looks like takes forever to even start moving for the ball. He got a terrible jump (which happens I guess.) Again I ask why is he starting so shallow with nobody on base?
I could keep going but I gotta go to work and I’m sure you have better things to do. But this is my point. When Kinsler or Zobrist make their plays Hill would not have even gotten to those balls. All of Hill’s highlights would have looked much easier if it were these other guys doing it. Just in case you want to accuse me of being bias in the plays that I chose to show…….
MW: “obviously you pick the one that you believe proves your point”
I will point out that I went to his highlight reel list and took the plays in order. I didn’t leave any out.
So again I’m asking you Mike. Why is he playing so shallow and turning kinda hard plays into so-called “amazing” plays? I have two possibilities….
1) Aaron Hill is so good that he knows things about playing second base that nobody else in baseball knows.
Or
2) Aaron Hill has shaky hands and has to stand straight up to get rid of the ball (which costs him time). Therefore has to start of playing further in than second basemen who can get rid of the ball quickly.
I think theory #2 is a little more likely.
You called me out. Prove me wrong.
MW: I really don’t understand why you think that second baseman should be playing on the outfield grass when there’s no one on base. I didn’t see Hill being far too shallow on any of those plays, and the one where you said he was three or four steps from the infield/outfield fake border looked as though he was about one step away when the pitcher started his delivery, then took another step in. Regardless, where Aaron Hill starts on defense probably has more to do with Brian Butterfield than anything else, so Butter’s probably the guy to talk to about it. Also, it’s cool that on at least three of the plays you’ve presented, Hill didn’t throw straight over the top, and on another (the one where you said another second baseman would have back-handed and thrown on the run), he threw over the top because he had time to do so.
- RealityCheckWhy would Rod Barajas even bother TRYING to throw out Crawford. There’s really no point on any play. He’s too fast.
- RenegadeIn case you forgot (or for anyone who doesn’t know what we’re talking about, here’s the plays I was comparing him to.
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5451081
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5387163
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=2694389
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5005729
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5114395
By the way, didn’t we draft Hill as a shortstop? Why did we move him from there. I doubt it was because of the great play of Russ Adams.
MW: We didn’t move him from shortstop, the Blue Jays did.
- RealityCheckI get really tired of the constant anti-Jay work from our Torontonian sports writers.
I followed the Cleveland Indians from about 1950 through to the mid-1960′s. I listened to games — and during all that time they never won anything to speak of.
Around here it seems that the sports writers, en masse, took a great dislike to JP when he arrived.
And it seems that until he is drummed out of town, they will not be happy.
Will there be a positive, supportive role by baseball writers after JP leaves to tend his family?
MW: It depends on whether or not they like the new guy. If he’s young and kind of brash, look out.
- Gary ReidA couple things:
i) I didn’t realize BJ Ryan was difficult with the media. What did he do in this regard (without getting too specific, if that’s an issue)?
ii) I’m listening to the game right now, and Jerry & Alan were discussing the idea of Aaron Hill contemplating intentionally allowing a soft liner to drop in front of him rather than catch it, making for an easy force out of Bartlett (who was on 1st) and leaving the slow catcher (Hernandez) on 1st. Jerry said this play likely wouldn’t have been allowed by the ump. Why not? Is there actually an infield-fly-like rule that addresses this? I always thought this was an allowable, somewhat risky move a player could make if he wanted to. I remember hearing a JaysTalk a while back where you suggested (if i recall correctly) that it could be a good play to allow an infield pop-up to drop to trade a speedy runner for a lesser one – but that it just never happens. What’s the verdict?
MW: 1 – Ryan is a prickly guy. He was always available after he pitched, though, which can’t be said of everyone. 2 – Any pop-up, lazy or not, can be allowed to drop and is a fair ball (if it’s fair, and the infield fly rule isn’t in effect). I think they were talking more about knocking down sort of a looping liner, which you’re not really allowed to do.
- MattDid you know that since vw signed his megabucks contract, andru jones, a guy that was supposedly washed up, only has 2 fewer homers than vw despite playing fewer games? this is a guy than anybody could have signed for nothing.
MW: It’s very true. Jones also earned much more money in 2007 and 2008 than Wells did.
- marlonHey Mike,
I have a couple of questions that I would like your input on. Firstly, do you think that JP Ricciardi has full control on whether or not he trades Halladay? Personally, I think, just like any other sports franchise, that when you are dangling your franchise player, that any trade you want to make would have to be approved by the President (in this case, Paul Beaston). Notwisthanding that, I still believe that if JP thinks that a particular trade would make sense, that he would be given the green light on making such a move. A lot of my friends seem to think that he has no control over this, and that Beaston has him on a very short leash. If this was the case, I honestly think JP would have quit a long time ago. Thoughts on this?
Secondly, these same friends seem to think that the Jays will be trading Doc because of the their signing of Vernon Wells. My take on the situation is that although Vernon Wells’ contract may hinder any potential signing of Doc, I don’t think playing Monday Morning Quarterback is fair. The fact is that we signed Vernon Wells after the 2006 season, and Doc is slated to become a free agent after the 2010 seasons – 4 seasons removed from Wells’ contract. Nobody in 2006 could have anticipated Vernon’s downward trend in production these past few years, and certainly nobody to this day knows if Doc will sign on after the 2010 season. So, having said that, I don’t think it’s fair to say that Vernon’s signing is proving to be a hinderence to signing Doc. Thoughts?
MW: 1 – Any major trade has to go through channels, and that generally includes the president and, often, ownership signing off on it. That doesn’t mean that it’s not Ricciardi who will be making the trade. If the Jays weren’t going to allow Ricciardi to actually be the general manager, they’d have long since fired him. 2 – It’s fair to say that the $84 million the Jays will owe Wells from 2011-2014 is a hindrance towards signing Halladay, but it’s not fair to say that odds were at the time that it would have been.
- Karim SunderjiWell, the Jays pitchers are finally, and for a bit now, showing what they really are: no number two or PROVEN 3-5.
What did you really expect??? The great start was a lovely mirage.
Although 2010 looks MUCH more promising, the returning starters aren’t really THAT much more proven, except in potential and a bit of MLB experience. So I hate to say it but 2011 is the one that looks really promising to compete in high-salary-land.
I hope they never trade Roy (unless he asks) but if they could land a REALLY blue chip starter and future 100 RBI guy out of it that will be prime in 2011, I’d give it a go and we would be stacked.
I don’t like the Ryan release for nothing either unless his attitude was REALLY bad. Make him the world’s highest paid minor league instructor and pitching coach :-)
- GaryRead this and tell me Wells does not have negative value.
-Dustin
On Tuesday afternoon the Blue Jays’ general manager, J.P. Ricciardi, said that while he’s not shopping the pitcher, he will listen to offers for ace Roy Halladay. This is the only sensible approach. Ricciardi’s team was one of the six best in baseball last year, and never really appeared in a race for a post-season berth. It’s one of the seven or eight best teams in baseball this year…and is nevertheless the fourth-best team in its own division. It’s likely to be fourth-best in its division next year. Despite some young talent on hand, the competition level of the AL East means that Ricciardi has to try and build the best team in baseball, and his current core, even with Halladay and some young players, won’t become that team. Trading Halladay is his way to do what the Rangers did by trading Mark Teixeira, and accelerate the construction of a championship-caliber roster.
MW: You copied-and-pasted a Baseball Prospectus article that’s subscription-only, and that’s very bad form. It was written by Joe Sheehan, who you also didn’t bother to credit. Sheehan certainly believes that Wells has negative value at this point.
- Dustin from PetroliaMichael,
How the heck do the Jays get out of this division?
Could we change the name of the team to The Canadian Blue Jays and argue we should be in the central division? Maybe play some games out west in B.C. or out east?
- Uncle BenSure, big gambles don’t always work, but when you’re in the Jays position, you can’t afford to take big gambles and have them not work.
Not sure how or why you keep defending him, Mike, but it is clearly time for Ricciardi to go. In the real world, executives are judged by results, not excuses–and based on his cumulative record, Ricciardi has been merely average. We are in the eighth year of the five-year plan.
Here’s what Baseball Prospectus had to say: “Ricciardi chose to make Rios and Wells the centerpieces of his offense, but both have been merely very good in their best seasons instead of great, and Wells just turned 30…Jays drafting has been very spotty during the Ricciardi era, and though they have developed some good players, that has not been enough for a ballclub that increasingly needs a lot more than that. The lack of home-grown stars puts them in an impossible position vis-a-vis the rest of the division.”
Not to mention that payroll has increased from $45 million in 2005 to $80 million, but only seven more wins to show for it.
MW: I just took out your last, insulting line rather than deleting your whole post, though I’m not sure why. Here’s something else that Baseball Prospectus had to say, and you can also see it above: “Ricciardi’s team was one of the six best in baseball last year, and never really appeared in a race for a post-season berth. It’s one of the seven or eight best teams in baseball this year…and is nevertheless the fourth-best team in its own division.” That’s a pretty good reason to fire a guy, I think. Building one of the top eight teams in the game over the course of the last three years.
- John from Victoria, BCMW: It’s very true. Jones also earned much more money in 2007 and 2008 than Wells did.
and wells will earn much more money in 2009-2015. texas is not complaining
- marlonwhy do you keep saying that halladay is not on the market. roy himself has given JP a list of teams he will not waive his no trade clause. so I think he knows he’s on the market.
- marlonmike, the reason the halladay issue has come up (you asked) was because the media has reported that rogers is coming out with a long term payroll structure in the next few days. I would guess that JP has found out the payroll will be around 80 mil going forward and that’s not enough to resign halladay so he has no choice but to start shopping him now.
MW: Let’s wait and see.
- marlonHi Mike,
Your comments just now on the post-game show regarding the Halladay situation, and your surprise that it’s coming up now that the team is struggling and the fact that this confuses you based on expectations, is exactly the point I was trying to make on the post-game show last night about a “lack of direction”.
That was my point, that I might add you said you “didn’t get at all.” Now you’re on the air, arguing the point I was trying to make.
The fact the Jays are now considering trading Halladay based on how the season is going is a complete lack of direction.
MW: But that’s not the reason they’re considering trading Halladay. And they’re not shopping him.
- bobwhere was it written that snider was going to be the everyday lf? why would anyone expect a 20 year old to do that. he should have been sent to AAA from the beginning and the jays sign a veteran dh. JP has to be blamed for millar. andru jones and eric hinske and branyan could all have been signed for nothing.
MW: Stunningly, the Jays wanted to add a right-handed bat in the off-season, not a lefty, presumably because they did so poorly against left-handed pitching last season. No one wanted Andruw Jones. It was written everywhere that Snider was going to be the everyday left fielder, because that’s what J.P. and Cito said all winter and all spring.
- marlonHi Mike,
Congratulations on the new baseball show! I’ve enjoyed listening to the first three broadcasts. I hope that you’re able to some analysis on the Jays’ minor league afiliates.
My question today is, I heard you say last night on The Jays Talk that you would be interested in acquiring a young catcher IF Halladay is traded, so what is reasoning for this? What are you or the organization’s thoughts on the progression of Arrencebia and Jeroloman?
Thanks
MW: My thoughts are that Arencibia is having a hard time in a hitters’ league in AAA, which may or may not mean anything, and while he has a ton of power, he hasn’t learned to walk yet. I think Jeroloman is a terrific defensive catcher, but all he does offensively is walk. I like them both, but the Jays could do better.
- Chris in IslingtonMW: Stunningly, the Jays wanted to add a right-handed bat in the off-season, not a lefty, presumably because they did so poorly against left-handed pitching last season. No one wanted Andruw Jones. It was written everywhere that Snider was going to be the everyday left fielder, because that’s what J.P. and Cito said all winter and all spring.
stunningly, the jays signed delucci. isn’t he a lefty?
I do believe that texas wanted andru jones. that is someone. last time I checked texas’ offense is pretty good and the jays’ is pretty bad.
you are right it was written but it was a severe error in judgement to actually think that a 20 year old could play a full ml season when he hadn’t even played a full season at AAA. did I forget to say that he was only 20? there is a reason why you dont see a whole lot of 20 year olds in the ml.
MW: There is definitely a reason that you don’t see a lot of 20 year-olds in Major League Baseball, but Snider’s 21 and he’s supposed to be special. If someone had wanted Andruw Jones, he probably would have signed somewhere before February.
- marlonI am amazed at how much hatred there is for JP. how many teams have 90% of the fans hate the gm and yet he never gets fired? the caller was right, this team has no direction.
MW: The fans’ opinion really shouldn’t matter at all as far as front office and player personnel decisions are concerned. And I don’t believe that even close to 90% of Jays’ fans hate the GM, just a bunch of the most vocal ones.
- marlonI am absolutely disappointed in Canada. Lind did not deserves to finish in the bottom. I dont understand it, the jays have an average canada wide television audience of 300,000 plus per game. Take that 300,000 and tell them to vote 10 times total, thats 3,000,000 votes.
This 3,000,000 is only when you consider that 1 person is watching the television at home of course and thus 2 or 3 people on average per household voting 10 times and we get over 6,000,000 votes. Thats not including how many people decide to stuff the ballot box like me whom voted 3000 times. How does a state (with a few people here and there in other states whom like the rangers or tigers) beat out an entire country.
I love baseball, and its just disappointing because if it was hockey….the whole all star game would be made of Canadians because Canada would surely stuff that ballot box.
- paoloGotta say Mike, I continue to enjoy your candor about the Jays.
Today’s post-game show comments about Millar hitting in the clean up position were bang-on.
As a fan, and a listener to almost every game, I appreciate this honest approach that you take to your job.
Would you ever ask Cito in a scrum setting why he hit Millar 4th? Just wondering.
MW: I don’t need to ask that question, I know the answer. Cito likes Millar – he likes his power and his veteran-ness.
- CamIf Cito said all winter that Snider would be the everyday left-fielder.. why didn’t he deliver on the promise? Snider rotted on the bench while Bautista played 5 games out of 7. They completely babied him and in the end, hurt themselves.
MW: Yes, they did.
- HalyconMW:The Rays won the division last year because of a shutdown bullpen that had no reason to be that good and because of a lot of luck in one-run games.
re post 10, why do you say luck? dont you think that the reason they win so many 1 run games is because of their team speed? upton and crawford can turn a walk into a triple. that helps them in 1 run games.
also re your comment on the AL east. even if I accept your argument, what does that have to do with the jays inability to beat the rays or orioles? they are not high payroll teams. what does that have to do with the poor interleague record?
MW: Even if you accept what argument? Why do I say luck? Because it’s been proven over time that a team’s record in one-run games isn’t static year to year, or even through the course of a season. There’s no special skill involved in winning one-run games, a lot of it is luck. By that, I mean one-run wins relative to a team’s overall winning percentage. I can’t explain why the Jays are awful in interleague every year. It’s one of the great mysteries of life.
- marlon“There will be no tag days for Ryan, no tears shed. The Jays’ clubhouse will be a friendlier place now, media-wise”
What’s the worst thing he’s done/said to you?
Thanks.
MW: There’s no point in getting into that.
What’s the point in making these subtle jabs at Ryan all the time then? It’s not the first time that you’ve mentioned something like that about Ryan not being friendly to the media, and you’ve done it about Burnett too, but don’t mention exactly what happened. Then when someone asks, you always say “I don’t want to talk about it”. If it’s a secret, why does everyone have to know that a secret even exists? haha. Aaaaanyway, I also don’t get everyone who thinks JP is unbelievable stupid for the BJ Ryan and Frank Thomas contracts. The truth is, pick any team in the Major Leagues, and chances are they have a bad contract on their team RIGHT NOW. TB- Burrel. red sox – lugo. yankees – igawa, a-rod (kinda), matsui (kinda), pavano just came off the books. tigers – robertson, willis, guillen, ordonez. the mariners have a bunch. the athletics have a couple. oliver perez looks horrible. the cubs have some brutal ones. there’s just so many teams with bad contracts.
MW: It’s very true. And I guess I understand why people want me to get into the reasons that I’m not a big fan of Ryan’s, but I really don’t feel as though there’s a reason to get into specifics.
- Brendanre post 36
that is amazing insight by realitycheck. first of all I never even knew that hill was playing shallow. I was curious about his theory and whether or not it was true so I just typed in kinsler and watched some video of where he plays. and every time when nobody was on, kinsler was playing on the circle or a few feet behind it. orlando hudson does the same thing. so it is clear that hill does play shallow. the question is why. I think there are 2 reasons
1 – hill does not have a very strong arm. he’s ok but that’s it. If he played deeper he wouldn’t be able to throw some runners out so he has to play shallower to compensate.
2 – hill isn’t that fast. he appears to run fast but I dont think he covers much ground. I would bet that rolen and wells are faster than him. if he played deep he wouldnt be able to get to balls. if you dont believe me look at hill’s steals totals. he only get 4 a year. now take a look at kinsler. 20+ every year.
now to blame butterfield is incorrect. butterfield is responsible for overall defensive positioning but that is based on the scouting report for the hitter, not on the defender.
MW: Hill has a very, very strong arm, so that’s not it. I agree with you on the speed thing with Hill, but I would think that the deeper one plays, the more chance one has of getting to balls if he’s slow. Butterfield knows exactly where Hill is setting up, though, because he’s putting him there.
- marlonre post 38
the reason why the jays moved hill from shortstop is the same reason he plays shallow, his speed and average arm. for ss you have to have a gun for an arm and you have to have great range. this is why when teams see a player doesnt have a strong arm they move him to second where you dont need as strong an arm.
and mike, why do you have to argue with everyone about something that is clearly obvious to everyone? why dont you ask butter and see why hill plays so shallow?
MW: I think I will. And I find it hilarious that you’re saying this Hill thing is obvious to everyone when you just said you didn’t even notice it until you checked out the clips the other commenter linked. Hill does have a gun for an arm, by the way.
- marlonbut the odds are very low indeed that the Jays can win the wild card this season.
I will go further and say their chances are nil this year. And unless they make some or all of their pitchers healthy next year it’s going to be a similar story next year.
you said trading rios would be a mistake. I agree but only because they won’t get much for him. Average fielders with no power are plentiful.
And lastly the time is right to trade Halladay with his decent 10-3 record. The way this team is playing Halladay’s winning record could deteriorate rapidly.
MW: Major league GM’s tend not to worry about a pitcher’s won-lost record when they’re trading for him. Halladay’s among the best in the business, and whether he’s 10-3 or 11-14, they’re well aware of how good he is. Their chances, obviously, aren’t zero to make the playoffs this season – they’re 9 1/2 games back with 74 games to play – but, as I said, they’re not good. And please, when you’re quoting someone, put quotation marks around the quote.
- dave_12Riccardi could go down as the manager who traded Halladay and signed some of the worst contracts in Jays history..
Almost 27 million bucks handed over to Thomas and Ryan..Wells is set to earn 20+ mil a season and lets not forget Rios..
Riccardi could leave this team in as much of a financial mess as was when he took over in 2001..He will have difficulty signing Halladay because of Wells’ contract and the boneheaded free money handed to Ryan and Thomas..
He was considered the Jesus of management when he dumped the Mondesi contract and lets not forget how many times he moaned about Delgato’s salary..
Here we are almost 8 years later and staring at the same situation as it was in 2001..
Two bloated contracts and a team with the potential to finish below .500..
You can argue this team has been chasing its tail for 16 years and counting..
This isn’t all Riccardi’s fault..Nobody thought Ryan would go into the toilet like he did and most people thought the Rios deal was a good one..
So whats the answer Mike..Why hasn’t this organization learned from its mistakes?..
MW: You’re equating the Delgado contract on a $50 million payroll with signing Ryan and Thomas (and Wells and Rios) when the payroll was double that. I wouldn’t say that they’re not learning from their mistakes so much as I would say they’ve lost a few big gambles. But they won’t be signing any more closers to five-year deals – that’s learning from a mistake, no?
- ray bHi Mike. With the release of BJ Ryan, and the 15 million we have to eat, I feel it is a good time to visit the track record of 1 JP Ricciardi. I have come up with 5 things he’s done that have had a positive effect on the team. Downs, Tallet, Hill,Lilly and Lind. Mind you, last June he was languishing in Triple A, at 25 years old, while Mench and Wilkerson were added to the roster last May. Now we are voting are fingers off for him to be an all star. Remember, it was on your show, 2 days before Cito was hired, that JP said Lind was not ready. Cito came, and so did Lind. The rest is history. Now the not so good. Releasing Carpenter. Trading for Prokopec. Signing Hentgen, Ligtenberg, Estellela. Trading Felipe Lopez at 22, 2 years later all star Lopez. Never playing Jayson Werth, then trading him. Nobody really mentions the fact how great he has played against Toronto in interleague. Perhaps an axe to grind. He’s putting up Barry Bonds numbers against us. Glaus for O Dog, good one. I know, we got Rolen for Glaus, but I still wouldn’t make that deal, and Rolen has only had 25 good games for Toronto so lets not get carried away. He’s a fine defender, but so is O Dog, and he is much younger. 5 years for Hinske, 4 years for Overbay, 7 years for Wells, 6 years for Rios 5 years for Ryan, 2 years for Thomas. SS Tulowitzki, can’t miss prospect, but we don’t need him, we’ll try Clayton, McDonald, Eckstein, McDonald, and Scutaro. That is hilarious. Stewart for Reed Johnson. Koskie, Ohka, Thomson, Zambrano, Clement, Barrett, Millar, Dellucci, Russ why am I still here Adams, and so on. Manager choice of I killed a man Tosca, and Bouncer Gibbons. Lilly probably would have stayed if not for Gibbons. As for all the arms that we have at our disposal, most of them seem to be a tad brittle, I won’t list them all, we know who they are. Weren’t we criticizing Burnett for being frail? He missed 15 starts in 3 years. Most of these injuries are season missing injuries, but they are young, so we’ll forgive them. If we didn’t have a gm for the last 8 years, and no draft, we could have Delgado at 1st O Dog at 2nd Lopez at ss Ryan Freel at 3rd, Werth, Rios and Wells in the outfield Reed Johnson and Gabe Gross on the bench, Carpenter, Halladay, McGowan, Escobar, League and Lyon in the closers role. I am really stuck for a catcher, maybe I’ll cheat and get Fletcher back there, he still looks like he can play. Lastly, maybe you can answer this, we gave Randy Wells back to the Cubs after we picked him in the rule 5 draft. His minor league numbers look pretty good, just wondering if you heard anything.
MW: We’re starting to revisit tons of old arguments, all of which I have answered hundreds of times. Go back in the archives if you want my answer, but I’ll say this – Carpenter wasn’t released, he left, and you’re dreaming if you think that Delgado, Hudson, Lopez, Freel, Werth, Carpenter, Escobar and Lyon would still be here otherwise. Where were the Jays going to get the money to keep all those guys? And it’s not as though you’d want Lopez, Freel, Escobar or Lyon right now anyway. Yes, the Jays sent Randy Wells back and now he’s pitching well for the Cubs. They didn’t want to have him on the major-league roster all year last year, and neither did the Cubs.
- daveIt was appalling to hear Hogan and Toth teaming up against you and trying to prove you wrong. Toth has been trying hard to “PROVE YOU WRONG”, but you’ve done a good job of reminding him in an indirect way that “concentrate on your hockey and leave the baseball to me”. Good on you Wilner!
MW: I don’t remember them ganging up on me, I just remember Hogan disagreeing with me about the Ryan/Thomas contract comparison.
- BeburgMW: I’m sorry that you’re sick of the fact that the Jays are in the AL East, but that’s reality. Until MLB smartens up and either balances the schedule or gets rid of the divisions or both, the Jays will be in very, very tough to make the playoffs. So will the Rays and Orioles. There’s a reason that only once has a team other than Boston or New York made the playoffs out of the AL East in the last 10 years, and if you want to ignore that, that’s up to you.
Yet twice since the divisions were set up, a non-Red Sox/Yankee’s team made it to the playoffs from the AL East. The Rays and the Orioles. The Jays are the only team never to have gone to the playoffs in this version of the AL East. Whether the Jays would win in the Central, or whether they are the 7th best team in baseball–which I find hard to believe in the light of recent events–is purely academic. The Jays aren’t winning and they’re not even coming close. However they might well have been right in the mix had their 3 and 4 batters not taken a nice long vacation from hitting the ball in meaningful situations. I”m not just blaming Ricciardi for this mess, Rios and Wells have to bear a lot of the weight for what the team has become.
That having been said, the big-ticket items Ricciardi acquired have almost all turned out to be lemons. We understand that he has made some good decisions, but he’s also made some terrible ones. I don’t see any way the team moves forward with him as GM. Some guys are a just a focus for controversy and turbulence and he’s one of them. The team needs calm and steadiness which he can’t provide. I have no insider knowledge whatsoever and I’m not making a prediction. But I would not be amazed if he got iced sometime very very shortly.
MW: The only controversy and turbulence that focus on J.P. comes from the media and the fans who don’t like his personality, the team doesn’t see him that way at all. It’s not really much of an argument to say that the Orioles made the playoffs in 1997 and the Rays made the playoffs in 2008, so it’s not that hard to not be and AL East team other than the Red Sox and Yankees.
- isabella reyesI’ve been trying for years to figure out why selg keeps his job, why he get paid 10′s of millions to do nothing, why the owners never complain or do anything about realignment. I think I know the answer. A rising tide raises all ships. The fact is ALL the owners secretly want the yankees to win every year. why? because they are the most valuable franchise. and when they win their value goes up and when the yankees value goes up then everyone elses goes up in proportion. It’s a very stupid and shortsited way to look at things but this is what they are doing. So they don’t want to mess with their meal ticket. teams like kc and oakland can just sit back and do nothing and watch their value go up every year. you dont hear the blue jays complaining do you? this is why selig keeps his job. the owners just want the status quo.
MW: Selig keeps his job because his owners are making more money now than they ever have, franchise values are higher than they’ve ever been, and MLB keeps setting attendance records. I don’t know how much that has to do with the Yankees.
- ravicito gaston is showing that he really is a totally incompetent manager. he refuses to rest any of his players in the first half of the season, now he rests 2 of his starters on the same day! and while the team is struggling to score runs he does this. mind boggling.
- raviand why would you rest 2 players when the all star break is freakin 3 days away!!!!
- raviIs your response to #32 sarcastic or not? Because while they still *could* have won, it is sad to see millar there in the 4 spot. Why sit Rolen when he is on a tear, and a big hit streak no less?
I was also curious about the fact that BJ would have to be willing to go down to the minors. Is that a new rule? because I have never heard of it. I always figured if they are paying the player they could make him play wherever they wanted.
MW: Not sarcastic at all. They certainly could have won, but they couldn’t have reasonably expected to. Rolen sat because Rolen has sat for most day games after night games all season, and he’s stayed healthy and strong. It’s not a new rule that players with 5+ years of major-league service have to agree to be sent to the minors for anything other than a rehab assignment.
- lennyHi Mike,
regarding my post where I said the Jays could use BJs $10 million next year – I meant if some other team had decided to take him off their hands if he had performed a bit better the end of this season. Then, assuming the budget remained the same, they would have an extra $10 million. I wasn’t very clear.
Anyhow, not too important. He’s gone and it’s done.
Enjoy the weekend, Mike, though I guess that doesn’t make much of a difference for you (except the day games).
MW: Only one day game this weekend. No matter how well Ryan had pitched the second half of the season, no one was going to take that $10 million off the Jays’ hands.
- RoryMike
I’ve been hearing rumors lately that Wells and Rios are thought to be less than adequete outfielders by most experts. Ive even heard that The Fielding Bible ranked Wells as the 32nd best CF in the league prior to the 2009 season. Is there any truth to this rumor?
MW: I don’t remember Wells’ exact ranking in The Fielding Bible for the 2008 season, but it was definitely in the bottom grouping. He was bottom five in Zone Rating, I believe. Rios, though, is recognized as perhaps the best right fielder in the game by the same people.
- RJSHey Mike. By listing the last 8 years of the Blue Jays, I was merely pointing out that the cupboard was not bare when JP came on board. Money would not have been an issue, as when Lopez was an all star he was making 400,000 and Carpenter signed with St Louis for 300.000. My main point is long term contracts, and poor evaluation of talent is what got the Jays where they are today. Gillick mad a couple of great rule 5 picks, and I was just asking why Wells wasn’t retained. I didn’t even know he was a Jay. If the Jays trade Halladay, they will really be a 500 team, because I have no faith in JP to make the right move. The history of this franchise, with 2 World Series wins, came in the pre wild card era. I think this is why some of us expect a little more from our Jays. Much easier to make the playoffs now than it was in 92 and 93
MW: It is twice as easy now to make the playoffs as it was in 92 and 93, but remember that the ’92 and ’93 Jays were the biggest spenders in the game. That’s certainly not the case now.
- daveRE: comment63..
I see your point about Delgado but the payroll for the Jays when they signed him was around 76mil..
The payroll dropped a few seasons after his contract was signed..
The Wells and the Delgado contracts are very similar..The salary is “back loaded” ..The final four years of Wells’ contract pays him more then 20mil a season as did the last few seasons of Delgado’s contract..
If the payroll drops over the next few seasons, the Wells contract will end up eating a large percentage of the total payroll just like the Delgado contract did..
You have said in the past that the Wells contract may have been Godfreys deal but nonetheless, its a pattern we have seen from this organization for years and you’d figure they may have learned a thing or two..
In my humble opinion, there are only a handful of players worth 100 million dollar contracts..Wells isn’t one of them..Halladay is..
MW: Halladay is for what he’s done, but not necessarily for what he will do at ages 36+. Delgado never made as much as $20 million when he was with the Jays, and though the payroll was higher when Delgado signed his deal, Ricciardi’s complaints were legit, since the payroll he had to deal with from day one was far lower.
- raybre: comment 74..
No Delgado didn’t make 20 mil..He made 19mil and change for 2 of those years..We can debate weather or not Delgado is worth that kind of money but it wasn’t a good contract for a team like the Jays..
They just can’t afford to be wrong..Aside from Halladay and maybe Clemons, the big money players haven’t worked out..I just wonder how many more times will they will overpay to bring players to Canada..
Do you think the Jays have to pay more to bring free agents to Canada?..If so why?
MW: Delgado never even made as much as $19 million any season with the Jays. I do think the Jays have to pay more to bring free agents to Canada – big ones, anyway – because it’s a foreign country. It’s not home and we’re not exactly dealing with well-rounded world travellers here.
- raybre: comment 75..
According to Baseball Reference.. Delgado made $19,400,000 in 2002 and $19,700,000 in 2004..
If the Jays maintain their current payroll of 80,500,000 in 2011, Wells’ salary will eat up about 28% of their payroll..
Delgado’s salary in 2002 was 19,400,000..The payroll that season was 76,864,333..Just over 25% of the teams total payroll..
Delgado did pretty good during those 4 seasons averaging more then 30HR and 100 RBI’s..But the team results weren’t there and his salary became a major problem..
The Wells contract will plague this team moving forward..Rumor has it, they are looking to unload Wells with Halladay..Nice move Riccardi..
MW: I wouldn’t believe that rumour. According to Cot’s baseball contracts, Delgado made $17.2 million in 2002 and $18.5 million in 2004.
- rayb