12:30 AM Eastern
Wow, did the Red Sox ever lay some lumber on Brett Cecil tonight. Eight runs on 11 hits in 4 2/3 innings, with five of those hits leaving the ballpark, four of the homers coming in the fifth inning.
That was one tough “Welcome to the Big Leagues” moment for the 22 year-old.
I’m quite surprised, actually, that The JaysTalk wasn’t riddled with callers ready to pull the plug on the Jays for the season, or call for Cecil’s immediate demotion, or opine that the Jays obviously can’t hack it against tough competition.
All of the above, of course, is nonsense.
Yes, the Blue Jays are 1-4 against the Yankees and Red Sox this season, and 26-12 against everybody else. They may even get swept by the Sox, and with the newly re-christened “Bobby” Ray pitching the finale, one might even say that they’re likely to get swept. Does that mean that they’re not ready for prime time? Of course not.
As I said at the beginning of the show, trying to get out ahead of the knee-jerkers I thought were sure to call in – look at where the Jays are, look at where you expected them to be at this point, and take a deep breath.
Going into the season, if you’d said the Jays would be three games OUT of first place on May 20th, people would have called you a cock-eyed optimist. It turns out that they’ve held on to top spot despite having the two highest payrolls in the game chasing them – one of which has already rattled off an 11-game win streak, and the other of which has won its last eight in a row. That’s a pretty impressive achievement.
Cecil had an awful fifth inning today. A caller brought up how impressed he was by Cecil laying out for a bunt that Jacoby Ellsbury popped up in the third. He dove and landed face-first in the grass down the third-base line with the ball just popping out of his glove. It took Cecil a while to get up – it had looked like he’d wrenched his right shoulder pretty badly. I certainly didn’t expect him to stay in the game but he did, and four outs later began the process of getting stomped like a bug. It hadn’t occured to me that (A) might have had something to do with (2), but maybe it did.
Still, I think he’s likelier than not to make his next scheduled start in the big leagues, as opposed in Vegas, unless he’s hurt.
Alex Rios and Vernon Wells each showed nicely tonight, with three hits apiece. Not enough, I know, for those of you who believe that hitters actually have the ability to choose when in a game they get their hits, but as far as I’m concerned, good news nonetheless. Especially with an offense that seems to be slowing down, despite the fact that the Jays still lead the majors in runs scored and batting average (though they’re now third in the league in OPS – at least they were going into the game, the Red Sox may well have passed them tonight).
Here’s tonight’s edition of The JaysTalk, for your listening pleasure:
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The finale goes Thursday night, with the Red Sox attempting to become the first team to sweep the Jays this season and the Jays trying to avoid their first three-game losing streak of the year. Bobby Ray makes his Fenway debut, and the looming presence of that big, giant wall only 310 feet away in left field has been known to turn pitchers to jelly. We wish Ray luck in his attempt to play streak-breaker, though we don’t have a whole lot of confidence.
Rational, reasonable comments are always welcome! I mean that, too. It’s been a while since I’ve said this, but there’s no point in dropping in the irrational and unreasonable ones – they won’t be posted. Also, just a friendly reminder, this blog is not the place to give knee-jerk comments during the course of a game – whether you believe they’re rational or not. It’s not a game thread, those comments won’t be posted.
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Hey Mr. Michael Baseball,
A couple of musings, in standard Wilner format:
a) In recent years, the Jays always seemed to do very well against the Red Sox and Yankees but then far too often underachieved when facing the lesser lights — teams that they really should have been beating up on. It seems this year they’re reversing that strategy. And probably a better strategy it is.
2) I left for Thailand on April 8th and am due to return the end of August — though I may stay through September. In other words, I’m gone for pretty close to the entire baseball season. And here the Jays are having their best start in decades. Now, seriously, Michael can this really be a COMPLETE coincidence? I think not. Any reasonable, rational person would have to concede that there’s something about my personal absence from the country that is contributing to this season’s success. Admittedly, I can’t put my finger on the exact factor here, but no one can explain Quantum mechanics, either (wave and particle at the same time, sure!) So, in light of this indisputable influence arising from my absence, it occurs to me, if they want to rack up another run of World Series championships this millennium, the Jays might well have a real interest in having me be here. So much so that perhaps they’d consider sponsoring my ongoing residence here in beautiful Hua Hin. Hmmm? So, Mike, I’m recruiting you as my intermediary and empowering you to whisper in the ear of Paul Beeston: if the Jays want these winning ways to continue, I’m prepared to talk turkey. (Or crispy duck, as the case may be.)
Have fun. Play ball.
MW: A – I don’t know that they’ve planned it out that way, but it does seem to be working to this point. 2 – If the Jays are still deep in the race in mid-August, I’ll get Beeston on the case.
- mikieMike,
Like many, I couldn’t watch the game, but I noticed that Cecil & co didn’t record a single out in the outfield. How odd is it for there to be a dozen hits or so to the outfield and none are caught for outs? Was there just some bad luck to this game?
MW: Cecil only gave up two hits to the outfield that stayed in the park. One was a line drive to right, the other a gapper to right-centre. But it’s true, no fly ball outs.
- gabrielYou are so ridiculous. You chastise people, “don’t call in” if the caller is going to be negative after the Jays’ go on a losing streak but then when the Jays’ are hot, you ask “where are all the negative callers”.
Take the good with the bad. Just be thankful you get paid to talk about a baseball game.
And sorry… Vernon Wells does suck right now at the plate. Tonight, He hits his trademark lazy flyball with runners in scoring position early in the game. But then he gets three hits after the game is out of hand. Looks good on a boxscore but his job is to drive in runs and he is doing very little of that right now.
People wonder why Cito has the reputation for not liking young players. Look at tonight, he pinch-hits for Snider after getting a hit in his previous at bat. So Cito shows confidence by pinch-hitting with Kevin Millar. You can bet Cito would not pinch-hit Snider for Millar in a similar position.
MW: No, you’re ridiculous. I tell people not to call in and be negative for the sake of being negative. If you’re negative, but have something constructive to say, I’m all for it. I don’t get what you’re trying to say about Cito – who is he showing confidence in? Millar? Certainly not Snider.
- Kelly PfeifferI hate to beat a dead horse Mike, but Wells is proving his naysayrs right. To a tee. Pops up or hits into inning ending double play with runners in position then promptly smacks two hits with nobody on after the game has degenerated into an 8 run deficit. Gee, thanks Vernon.
MW: Again, it’s not as though he has the ability to control when he gets his hits. And for his career, he’s been a better hitter with RISP than not.
- VitoFrom Hamiltonvery telling stat, jays are 13-4 when lind drives in a run and 14-12 when he doesn’t. it just shows you how much he is carrying this team. just imagine how many more runs the jays could score if we had a manager who put the best rbi man in the cleanup spot. I don’t think lind is getting enough credit for how much he is contributing to this team’s success. oops I mean we team’s success.
- pabloWe all know the jays are going to be swept here and there and are going to have losing skids its a psrt of the game. The important issue is how they bounce bak and we have seen it so far.
My questing how does the coaching staff approach cecil about the game? Is there added pressure knowing that there are a group of guys waiting to be callede up at the first string of bad startes? IS this a bit too much pressure for a 22 yr old or is it a good look at the challenge the majors brings to young players?
MW: I don’t think it’s too much pressure, it’s part of the job. But the coaches will talk to him about the fact that he gave in when things started to collapse around him.
- Chris RMike,
Food for thought for those that wish to continue to excoriate Vernon Wells, but fail to understand the concept of Small Sample Size (capitalized only for emphasis). These are based on his career numbers because they are the only numbers which give us a large enough sample from which to draw conclusions about his abilities to “hit in the clutch”. Let’s look at his numbers (BA/OBP/SLG/OPS) with Bases Empty, Men On and RISP shall we?:
Bases Empty: 2543 PA .282/.324/.469/.793
Men On: 2280 PA .282/.339/.487/.826
RISP: 1359 PA .277/.342/.485/.827
Did you hear that Mike? That’s the sound of the shattering of the haters’ illusions/delusions about Vernon’s hitting abilities. According to them he’s fine when nobody’s on, but when runners are on, he sucks. Not true. In fact he gets quite a bit better according to his track record (not some 50 PA pittance of a sample size).
Another common ad nauseam complaint with V-Dub is that he piles on all his hits and RBI in meaningless situations i.e. when the game is out of hand one way or another. Wrong again. Interestingly enough, he doesn’t really have enough of a sample size in situations where the margin is greater than 4 runs, but he has enough in each of the other margin situations (tie game, +/- 1, 2, 3, or 4 runs). His range of OPS in these situations runs from .802 to .813, which is remarkably consistent and certainly not in keeping with someone whose big hits are “always coming in meaningless situations”. The .813 OPS represents what he has done in his career when the score is tied, which of course is the most crucial run margin situation that there is.
I fully realize that this will do less than zero to stop the haters from picking up the phone and calling to scream at you about his “ineffectiveness” when it counts. What I would ask them to before boring us all with another V-Dub sucks rant is to look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves if they’re saying it because it’s true, or because of the huge contract. Yes, V-Dub set himself and future generations of his family up for life when he signed that contract on that cold December day, but he also sealed his fate as public whipping boy number 1 with the fans. Sad but true,
- Tom the InternMike, it looks like Cecil’s pitches really start to rise up in the zone when he gets tired – and when his pitches rise up like that, he seems to be getting hammered. The same thing happened against Chicago in his last start after about 80 pitches or so but the Jays got him out of there before the damage could really mount. I also noticed a significant drop-off in his velocity against Cleveland starting in the 5th inning of his first start as well (but not against Oakland though). Therefore I think he still needs to build up his stamina as a starter or maybe the Jays can just put him in the bullpen when Janssen gets back. You know, to add some depth in the ‘pen and to better control his innings for just this season, ala Jimmy Key (c. 1984).
Anyway, I thought this game wasn’t lost with Cecil in the fifth but instead with the offense in the early part of the game when the Jays couldn’t score off of Brad Penny and his 1.68 WHIP. The Jays did hit some balls pretty hard and deep to the outfield though, and they did hit some line drives off of the Monster, but Wells and that huge pop-up in the 3rd with two in scoring position, oh boy. For me, that was the game changer right there.
Jeff Blair of the Globe and Mail called Vernon’s 3 hits after that pop-up “irrelevant.” I agree. But not because I believe in clutch hitting, I don’t. I just think that Vernon by his nature is much too streaky a hitter when compared to the other elite middle-of-the-order hitters in this division. It’s Vernon’s lack of consistency that makes him such a frustrating experience for fans in key RISP situations.
I think Vernon is much more of a complimentary type bat than a superstar type bat. He’s like a Tori Hunter type who usually hits 5th or 6th in the lineup, as he should.
The problem here is that the Jays don’t have the true consistent clean-up type of hitter that their division rivals have. Instead, the Jays have like three no. 5 hitters and two no. 6 hitters. So they end up with a very good lineup but having to bat Vernon in that position by default.
Vernon may also be just uncomfortable playing the role of the Jays’ big hitter. I think this may explain why he has thrived in the past when guys like Glaus and Delgado have hit behind him. Those guys could take the focus off of him a little bit.
His lack of comfort in the key hitter type of role may also explain why in `07 he seemed to thrive offensively only after they moved him into the leadoff position for a few weeks after his season long slump. Injury was supposedly at the root of the slump, yet strangely when he hit leadoff he thrived for some reason. Maybe the slump was the result of both pressure from the big contract and the shoulder injury.
If the Jays can just acquire a true clean-up hitter and subsequently drop Vernon to sixth he may thrive once again. If that happened it might be the same result as having acquired two bats, not just one.
MW: The comparison to Torii Hunter is a very good one – they’re similar hitters. But Wells’ two enormous offensive seasons have really raised expectations, as has the fact that he’s hitting clean-up, a spot for which, as has been noted here many times, he’s really ill-suited.
- McLovinMike-love the blog. my Question is how many home Runs do you think vernon will hit this year,and if the Jays Would put him on the trading block how many takers would there be and what could they get in return.
MW: I think Wells will hit 25-30 homers this year. There wouldn’t be many takers if he were to be put on the block, because not many teams could afford him, but I would think there’d be a small line-up.
- izzyThe amount of confidence Cito had in Cecil to get that final out in the fifth was agonizing to watch.
- LeeI really hope Cito had a successful chat with Cecil after the game tonight.
I am curious, when was the last time any jay hitter was named player of the week? has it ever happened this century? maybe delgado
MW: The last Jay hitter to be named A.L. Player of the Week was Alex Rios, who won it for the first week of September 2008. This century? From 2001 on, a Jay hitter has won the award 13 times. Delgado had four of those.
- pabloMike on Jays talk today a caller said that Ortiz looked different at the plate after he hit the homerun and you told him he was right as if you were accepting this as fact.
What did he do that made him “look” different
Was his batting stance difference?
Or are you just saying he “looked” different because he doubles in his next at bat.
I just didn’t think the statement made sense and was shocked you’d agree with a statement like that.
I mean if he struck out in that at bat (which he did in the next one) would you still say he looked different?
I thought he looked the same.
MW: I thought he looked different. He was taking “mightier cuts”, trying to dictate the at-bats instead of being sort of meek.
- josh…my first attempt at replying to blog.
This series didn’t set up well for the Jays.
Fenway is tough on lefties and rookies.
The Jays rotation spit out a lefty, a rookie lefty and a rookie.
…but then again, that’s just unfortunate timing.
Why doesn’t Doc pitch in every series?
Something that’s been bugging me – Janssen & McGowan….
Forget about them when mentioning starting rotation candidates.
They’ve both had labrum surgery.
That normally means your career is over…only Schilling and a few others returned to 100%.
The normal routine for labrum/rotator cuff surgery is:
– miss 1 year – work your way back – struggle for a year or two – then retire.
Marcum however is a different story – elbow (TJ) surgery – a full recovery is not uncommon.
What do you think of trading Rios + pitching to Cincy to bring Joey Votto home?
MW: I want to wait and see how Votto recovers from this bout of dizziness first, but Joey is one heck of a hitter. As for Janssen, check out his work in rehab, it’s been very impressive. Don’t write either Janssen or McGowan off yet.
- Mike in NBOh well. It’s a 162 game schedule and even the best teams in baseball lose about 10 or 11 a month. So far the Jays are a respectable 12-7 in May.
That equals 87 wins if they play .500 ball from this point on and I think they’re far better than that.
Having an absolute glut of quality starters to pick from can be a huge benefit throughout the dog days of July and August when other teams suffer their share of injuries as all teams do.
I’m not brimming with confidence either when it comes to “Bobby” Ray holding the Red Sox in check. Therefore I have to pin my hopes on the offense and pray that our predominantly right-hitting team starts whacking a few off the green monster and John Lester with his bloated 6.50 ERA.
(mind you, I said the same thing about Brad Penny)
Lester strikes out a ton of players. Let’s hope we’re on our game and have our ‘good eye’ open to take at least 1 game out of 3. -At Fenway, that should be considered a success.
- Andy ShoneMichael of the Ballyard:
Are you saying you think that the game situation (close game, runners on vs. blow out) doesn’t really impact the significance of a player’s stats, in terms of their usefulness? Because I saw some interesting stats the other day about how Wells’ average was quite a bit less with runners in scoring position after the seventh inning than in most other situations, and I’m not so sure that can casually be discounted.
On an unrelated note, I think I remember you saying you were from Mississauga, so despite our vehement disagreement over whether or not John Gibbons should have been fired earlier than he was you might be happy to know that I am going to be the new Mississauga Intercounty League team’s first ever beat writer. I think it would be great if you could check out my new Mississauga Twins blog (they are, after all, your team!) and the stuff I write on their site and tell me what you think at some point later in the summer!
MW: Mississauga Twins blog, eh? I’ll have to check it out. As far as the Wells thing goes, see above. The numbers with RISP and the 7th inning on can indeed be casually discounted, because the numbers over the course of his entire career tell a different story.
- Kevin Drapermike, you keep using the same old tired argument “going into the season if I had told you…” just because we were all wrong and the team is in 1st place doesn’t mean we now have to accept anything better than last place. the jays have led us to believe they are now a good team and can compete so we have to raise our expectations. and the jays do have to play better against the sox and yanks. if the jays make the playoffs they will have to face them so they need to show a better effort than what they’ve shown
MW: If the Jays make the playoffs, they would only have to play one of the Red Sox and Yankees, and maybe neither of them. After tonight, they’ll have played six of their 36 games this season against those two teams, hardly enough on which to base any kind of assessment.
- pabloon a positive note, I just want to say that overbay made a great scoop on rolen’s throw in the dirt that saved a run and barajas made a great catch and tag on jacoby pillsbury to save a run. I dont think you give barajas nearly enough credit for his fabulous defense. he hardly ever makes a bad play, blocks balls, throws runners out, calls a good game. and you want him gone next year?
MW: I don’t want him gone, but he’s a free agent and the Jays have two good ones coming up behind him. He’s also not a good hitter, despite his start so far this season.
- pabloMike,
I live in the States in NJ, and I saw the game on the Extra Innings Package (no volume) while listening on the PC… it was amazing how synchronized the two happened to be…
In any case, my point… when I heard you and the callers I dd not see anybody bring up the point that Cecil may have been more hurt than anybody thought after that attempt at catching the bunt…
the way he was pitching before that and the way he pitched after that (all those home runs) I think that he was hurt from that play more than even he figured out…
MW: Maybe, that’s not what he said, but maybe.
- Ray VastaGaston said Snider would be back in the lineup tonight, and talked openly about the possibility that at some point soon he might be sent out to Triple-A to work on whatever ails him. Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi concurred, saying a spate of interleague games might be a good time to bring up a player that “gives us a little more flexibility.”
mike didn’t you say snider would be sent down before the atlanta series? oops my bad, that was me
MW: Oh no!
- pabloI see why people see Jimmy Key in Cecil, but I’m pretty sure key didn’t throw as hard as Cecil and he seemed to come across his body a lot more.
Many will call this a “homer” comment, but the difference in that game was that Brad Penny was hugely lucky. He gives up 9 hits in 6.2 innings and k’s only two. Almost every out was hit squarely but out to centre field.
Watching the stuff of those two pitchers – I sure know which one I’d bet on next time out – and it wouldn’t be Brad Penny.
MW: I was surprised that Penny got away with as much as he did. But it just means that the Jays can’t play with the big boys.
- Jim MaronI think this team will need hitting more than pitching as the season progresses. Toward that end I’m curious about Brian Dopirak. He’s a guy who was a 2nd rounder, looked like a budding star hitting 39HR’s at 20 yrs of age in the Midwest league (956 ops). Then he lost it for 3 years – ops in the 600-700 range) and was cut. The Jays sign him last year and he puts up a 959 ops in Dunedin. This year in AA he’s putting up a 944 ops, which is fantastic in the Eastern League.
He’s still only 25. What do the Jays think of this guy?
MW: They do like him quite a bit, they’d just like to see him succeed at higher levels. So far, he’s passing the test at AA with flying colours.
- Jim MaronIt’s too bad that Wells’ three hits came once the game was already a laugher. He had a beauty chance with runners on second and third to give Cecil a cushion.
The bats definitely seemed to have quieted a bit… but in the Jays defense, after facing 99% knuckleballs on Wednesday, Penny’s 90-95mph must’ve looked closer to 110mph at times.
MW: Cito Gaston has said a few times that a knuckleballer can screw up the hitters for a couple of days afterwards.
- MikeVernon Wells career:
High leverage situations: .840 OPS
medium leverage: .828 OPS
low leverage: .779 OPS
Clearly, he can’t take the heat.
MW: Clearly.
- BrettHey Mike, What did you think of Cito taking out Snider for Millar in the 8th. The game wasn’t really in reach and maybe some exposure to lefty would be good for him. What do you think?
MW: The game was a single away from getting to 8-5, so it was hardly out of reach. Cito doesn’t want Snider facing lefties in tough situations yet.
- SMHey Mike,
I have a friend who is, to my chagrin, a BoSox fan. I told him how impressed I’d been with Cecil this year. And I will admit, I was teasing him yesterday about how even BJ had managed to strike out Ortiz.
Boy did I hear it tonight.
I never even thought that he might have been off as a result of that ill-advised dive. Not that I don’t admire the attempt, but pitchers are seemingly fragile beings, and they shouldn’t put themselves at an unnecessary risk of being injured.
I hope the Jays let him have another couple of starts to give him the opportunity to rebound (if he’s healthy) and Cito being Cito, they likely will. Regardless of how he does after that, I’d like to see Janssen up for a little while.
Cecil will not be able to pitch the entire year due to the need to restrict his innings and if he is a bonafide member of the rotation on the Jays depths charts, would it not be more advantageous to have him pitching in August and September when I believe we face a higher concentration of divisional foes?
I know all games are equal, but some are more equal than others.
Quick question:
I was flipping through the channels this morning and came across a show displaying baseball catches. They showed a few highlights of players going over the wall while catching potential home runs.
What’s the rule on runners advancing in those circumstances? Are they allowed to tag and run wild until the outfielder climbs back over the wall and throws to the infield? Do they have to hold up (which would be unfair in my eyes)? Or are they allowed to advance one or two bases?
Cheers
MW: They’re allowed to tag up and go.
- KaliHello Mike
What happened to all the callers tonight? They all sounded reasonable ;-)
I feel sorry for Cecil last night. He felt so bad that he apologized. It looked to me that he started rushing his pitches and Barajas should have probably visited the kid after Ortiz’s home run, calmed him down and bring him into focus. You are right about players needing to be tough though. If they get destroyed after two bad outings, you don’t want them. They need to have a thick skin to survive the majors.
A quick question – the Sportsnet commentators were talking about pitchers having good outings. What defines a good outing? a good WHIP?
Thanks
MW: A good outing is like obscenity – you can’t always define it, but you know it when you see it.
- francis xHi Mike,
We are a huge fan of your show, with a 2 hour drive home from the game, we always listen to the show after the games.
I was hoping for the Jays to win at least one against the Red Sox, so keeping my fingers crossed for tonight.
My question, why would Cito have left Cecil in? He came out to the mound when the score was 5-0 and left him in to allow another 2 home runs. Other Toronto pitchers have been pulled long before allowing so many runs. I am not questioning Cito, just wondering if you have any idea of what the benefit of that move would have been?
I have lots of faith in Cecil, hopefully the dive didn’t injure him. Hopefully it was just a matter of getting rattled by the Red Sox. I am looking forward to his next start, and hoping that he is able to pull it together like he did in his last few starts.
I am still impressed by the Jays. They are great to watch this year. We have been to the 3 games with the highest attendance – great atmosphere, and hopefully it continues!
Thanks for the great show and blog!
MW: Thanks! I think Cito really wanted to allow Cecil to get that third out to get out of the inning on a good note.
- KaisaOkay, so what …the kid (Cecil) had a rough night. But thats part of developing into an experienced starter in the Big Leagues…its a learning process. He is not going to go out and have a fantastic game every single outing, there are going to be good days and bad days. Take Halladay for instance…he had to go back to the minors for a bit to reinvent himself and look where he is today! Cecil shouldn’t have tried to make that diving catch on that bunt…those kinds of plays should be handled by his infielders…not by a young pitcher. Rolen would have easily had that ball after the first bounce and thrown the runner out at first. All in all Cecils learning the ropes right now…give him time…he’ll be just fine!!!
- DendamdWell Boston is playing well this year – no doubt and our luck that Ortiz decides to come off his hitting slump.
YOu did say that you thought Litsch should be playing this series.
There is a sense of being thrown to the wolves, without our Ace. But would they have countered with there’s?
MW: I didn’t say that Litsch should be pitching this series, I said I’d have been more comfortable if Janssen had gotten the start over Ray in the third game. The Red Sox wouldn’t have countered with Josh Beckett (THEIR ace) had the Jays moved Halladay up, but one could make the argument that Lester is 1A with Beckett, anyway.
- BarbTurn around is fair play as we have said before this season when the Jays won big then lost big!
In this case remember last season when the Jays opened the season by sweeping the Red Sox – didn’t mean anything then and a Red Sox sweep today won’t either.
No need to make excuses for the Jays thus far in this series! This kind of thing happens to the best of the best, all the time in pro sports! A little butt kicking once in a while never hurts, and usually gives you some more incentive towards returning the favor in your own home park.
Young Cecil is very lucky he wasn’t playing on the home turf as more than likely he would be sitting today with a seperated shoulder. That was not his play to make at all! Rolen would most certainly have had that ball before it hit the ground. Lesson learned, I hope!
I have noticed more and more you have been getting “in game” comments dropped here Mike. Wake up people and comment on the blog not the game as it’s in progress. How much time do you think our host has! This is a blog not a chat forum!
Good call there Mike as to not posting the “in game” comments! Keep up the great work you do.
Thank you.
- Bob from BurlingtonYou’ll let us know if Cecil is ok? or injured?
Thanks Mike,
MW: That’s my job.
- BarbWell that’s it…season over!! I knew it was too god to be true…time to fire JP, make Cito GM and Btterfield the Manager…of course I am kidding. Even if we play .300 ball against the big three in the east and continue to pound the West and Central at th same clip we are now..that comes out to somewhere around 93 wins…at the very least we will be playing meaingful games in September…and who (other than Bob McCown) saw THAT coming in Spring Training??
MW: Nobody.
- KevinCould you please tell me what if we trade B.J. Ryan, and Brandon League and Jerry Accordo for a second piture. Could you please tell me what happened with Jerry Accardo.
MW: There’s no chance the Jays could get a legit #2 starter for Ryan, League and Accardo.
- Michael LatI believe there was some very lazy managing in the fifth inning. It was obvious that Cecil had nothing left – he was being hit hard all over the place, and almost got away with it when they got the out at the plate. But after the Ortiz dinger, and certainly after the Youkilis hit, he should have been out of the game and not left in to face two more tough righthanded batters. This business of trying to squeeze one more out from a guy who is obviously done is not good managing. This isn’t knee-jerk second guessing – I felt that way as it was happening. I think Gaston’s done a great job this year, but we have to call him out on this one.
MW: That’s nothing new from Cito, though. If you think he’s done a great job this year, then you should have expected that.
- JayHey Mike,
Do you think Cito should have pulled Cecil a litter earlier? I mean giving up 5 homers has got to get to a young guy considering he was cruising so well in his first two starts. Do you think it will affect his next start?
also… prayers go out to Scott Schoeneweis and his family….
MW: If it affects his next start, he should be sent down. One would help that Cecil would be able to put it in the past.
- RandyTough outing for the Jays, but I suppose one can look at it this way: the Red Sox got all their runs in this game and will be hard pressed to get many in the finale. I really hope the Jays win with Bobby Ray to continue their season long streak of no more than two losses in a row, though one has to give the edge to Lester somewhat.
Cecil’s dive looked nasty, but from the replays it made me wonder if his right shoulder was less the issue and perhaps he winded himself. He wasn’t moving forward with enough speed for a proper layout and landed straight down onto the ground rather than sliding out of it. I personally don’t think that that had anything to do with his implosion 4 outs later. If it occurred right away, OK, but he did get those 4 outs before his pitches started to sit like ducks up in the zone.
And lastly, I thought that Barajas throwing out Lester (I think it was Lester) at third base was going to spark the team and cut the prospective Sox run tally short, but it was not to be.
Who do you think finds himself in Las Vegas first: Cecil or Snider? My money is on Snider right now.
MW: Barajas didn’t throw out anyone at third, and Lester is a pitcher, so I’m not sure where you’re going with that. My money would be on Snider right now, too.
- VavaMike said: “Alex Rios and Vernon Wells each showed nicely tonight, with three hits apiece. Not enough, I know, for those of you who believe that hitters actually have the ability to choose when in a game they get their hits”
You’re coorect, hitters don’t have the ability to chose when they get their hits, but pitchers do have the capability to pitch differently with runners in scoring position. They will tend to bear down a little more than they would with the bases empty. Joe Morgan says a lot of silly things, but one of his more rational ideas is that you can take two hitters with identical OPSs, but one of those (more valuable)hitters hits good pitching and nastier pitches better than the other. Wells is not one of those extra-valuable hitters. I think Aaron Hill might be.
MW: Not if you looked at their careers prior to this year.
- Evan WhiteThey should win tonight despite Ray being on the bump.
Then, they can lick their wounds and head out to Atlanta & Baltimore before having to “face the bully” at the schoolyard on the 29th.
Poor Cecil. But hey, if we want to see what the kids can do, we have got to put them out there.
Ray’s going to need some big time run support. Again, a team that averages around 6 runs a game has averaged 2 over the last two nights. Time for a 10spot.
MW: Or not.
- AngeloHey Mike,
Just wondering if any Blue Jay pitcher (past or present) has ever employed the “Eephus pitch”?
Also, who is you favourite Blue Jay of all time? (My fav is Paul Molitor).
MW: Not on a regular basis. I think Miguel Batista might have tried it once or twice.
- Phil RussellSuddenly, and without warning, I feel like we’re about witness a cataclysmic baseball explosion that is Alex Rios and his resurgent bat.
Is it me – or does it seem like he’s shifting his weight nicely and getting solid lumber on the ball? He’s lifting it again, much like he does when he’s on a roll, and driving it through the strike zone. Perhaps he’s finally made the necessary adjustment in finding his comfort level at the plate?
Like others in the city, I’ve been frustrated watching him for the first 1/4th of the season — however, I never really lost faith in his ability, just his focus. He is one of those few players in the league that can take over a game when properly motivated, and given his position in the lineup, is primed to contribute on a scale befitting his contract.
I just hope Blue Jays fans understand that, while Red Sox nation was busy cheering and celebrating Big Papi’s oustanding accomplishment of hitting his very first (!) home run of the year, we’re still bracing ourselves to witness Rios’ finest hour – simply because we know he can do more. And when he gets there, it will be a very fine hour indeed. Until that time, let’s keep things in perspective and appreciate the fact that – even in a slump – he’s doing more for our team (in the field & at the plate) than either Ortiz or Teixeira.
MW: Rational and reasonable (except for the touch of hyperbole off the top), just like I like it!
- Ari ShapiroMW: I’m sure that pitch still resonates with Jays fans a lot more than it does with Eckersley.
You may well be right. But that was the pitch that lost his team the ALCS, so I think he might remember it a little better than most…
On another topic: Cito Gaston stays with his lineup as a matter of policy. He doesn’t like to change it up because he feels the players do better when they know he has the confidence to trot them out even if they’re not hitting well. And I am a huge fan of Cito Gaston, as you know. However Vernon Wells seems to be crying out to be moved either forward–which at the moment is impossible–or back. His risp% is horrible and he’s never really been effective as a clean-up hitter. He hits well when he’s not expected to get runners over. If he’s moved further back, given how much Gaston hates to move his order, what effect will that have on his confidence at the plate?
MW: He’s not being moved, so the question is moot.
- reyesSorry for the typos in my previous post…I know that drives you crazy…and I even proofed it…oh well.
- KevinWas it just me or was anyone else completely fed up with having to listen to Dennis Eckersley for 9 innings last night? It seems like to him MLB should shut the season down and crown the Red Sox World Series champions today.
I was intrigued by his comment that the Red Sox bullpen is FAR better than the Blue Jays’ and there’s no way that the Jays can continue their early season success, all because Mr. Eckersley hasn’t heard of any of the relievers except for BJ Ryan. He even had the guts to say that Justin Masterson was better than most of the pitchers in the Jays ‘pen. Are you kidding me?? 2-2 with a 4.57 ERA. Since 2006, the Jays bullpen has finished 11th, 3rd, 1st while the Sox have finished 21st, 2nd, 11th. If Mr. Eckersley picked up his little Media guide, he might realize these guys have been one of the top bullpens since 2007.
He ripped everyone from the bullpen, to the starting rotation (minus Doc of course, or I would be even more infuriated), the hitters, and even took a few shots at Cito Gaston. If my memory serves me right, wasn’t Cito in the dugout the last time you tried to show the Jays up and pointed in their dugout, Mr. Eckersley? Oh right, we all remember how well that turned out for you then!
Here’s to hoping that the Jays can shut Mr. Eckersley up tonight the same way they did in ’92!
- Mike WMike, it was good news to see Wells and Rios get some hits. I am noit one of those Wells bashers, I do think he is a good player and will turn around his hitting. I do think though that his number four spot does hurt the team and should be moved down to 6th. I would really like to see rolen moved the 3rd in the order and Lind hit 4th. This was a qoute from Cito that had me head scratching “You’re only the fourth-place hitter one time,” Gaston said. “If you’re swinging bad, trust me, they’ll find you.” .
Yes it maybe true the clean-up hitter is only actually the 4th place hitter once but the top of the order still come to the plate before Vernon the entire game and those are the guys that are supposed to get on base for Vernon to cash them in throughout the entire game. Cito’s statement was a bit overly simplistic. Again, nothing against Vernon but I think the team could make improvements. I know Cito’s thoughts, what are yours?
MW: I’ve made mine clear here many times.
- KenMW: I usually mention everyone who does well in the blog. But yes, I have pointed out Wells’ good deeds to shed light on the fact that he’s nowhere near as terrible as most people seem to think. But that was April. In May, there hasn’t been much good to highlight.
My actual question was why do you call out those who do not call into your show when he does well, and go out of your way to point out in your blog when he does well, yet you dont even mention him in your blog at all then he does poorly.
If your going to criticize those who do not “face the music” so to speak when he plays well, shouldn’t you talk about the poor games he has as well?
What is the difference really?
Again, thanks in advance for the clarification.
MW: I do talk about the poor games, I talk about everything. But it’s just typical of the loudmouth whiners to only wait until there’s something about which to whine. Rarely do you hear someone call in to praise someone who they have said was “done” or “sucks” when it’s proven just how wrong they were. More often than not you’ll hear those same people say they were behind that player all along.
- SeanHi Mike,
In defence of VDub, his 3 yr RISP avg is still .294 despite this years .167 avg. Translation, things will get better in time.
Other than that, lets hope we win tonight to get the lead up to 2.5 games!
- SunnyMike,
I wanted to begin by thanking you for your dedication to this blog. I really appreciate that you take the time to answer 50+ comments every day in addition to your normal duties. Discovering DrunkJaysFans and this blog last year has really made following the Blue Jays more enjoyable.
I have a question regarding computer assisted umpiring. In last night’s game, the ump made an absolutely brutal strike three call against Adam Lind in the 6th inning. On T.V. and on MLB gameday, the ball was clearly outside. Even though the Jays were down 8-0 at this point and likely wouldn’t come back, the point remains that in a different situation, this call could have completely changed the game. Lind even had to chase outside pitches late in the game because of this call.
Do you think it will ever happen that computers will help umpires call balls and strikes? I don’t think umpires will ever be completely replaced, but a system like what tennis uses could prove really effective in baseball. Teams could have ‘x’ number of challenges each game, and a computer would decide the ball or strike call. MLB already seems to have the technology, and is already moving in this direction with video replay on home run calls.
1. Do you think that this is the right move for baseball?
2. Do you think it will ever happen?
Thanks for your time and keep up the great work!
MW: 1 – Not with the challenges and stuff. For every pitch, I think it would be great. 2 – No.
- LetalikLots of things went wrong with the Jays last night.
The offense got 14 hits but left tons of baserunners on (11) and went 2-12 RISP. It was nice to see Rios and Wells hitting, but the inability to capitalize reminded me of the mid-season Jays last year.
Cecil got absolutely bombed in the 5th. I actually think it had to do with the shoulder too. And while I guess it’s a humbling experience early in the season, I would say it’s no longer “early in the season”. These games will come back to haunt the Jays in the end.
What worries me about Cito is that we are 40+ games into the season now and Cito has got to think about winning games. That means more pinch hitting and pulling out pitchers a bit earlier. I think that the pen should have been warming after the shoulder hit and that Cecil should have been replaced at 5-0 (before the two bombs). But I’m not Cito.
I think Cecil will still get another start to prove himself.
I hope the Jays can pull one off tonight.
- TimThere are reports that SD and CWS have agreed on a deal for Jake Peavy, subject to Peavy waiving his no-trade clause. Other report suggest that Peavy has reservations about playing for Ozzie. Also, what CHS is rumoured to be giving up for Peavy, who is turn 29 this month, LHP Aaron Poreda (Chicago’s top pitching prospect), and lefty Clayton Richard don’t seem like an exorbitant price.
My point is that if Peavy vetoes the deal because of the Ozzie angle, the Jays could easily match what CWS were offering and get a proven starter under contract for several years without mortgaging the future.
I’m most interested in your opinion even if Peavy does agree to the Chicago trade.
MW: There are two others players going to San Diego in the deal, reportedly, and their identities have yet to be revealed. It does seem, though, as though the Jays could match the offer if Peavy declines, but Poreda seems to be the White Sox’ Cecil. The thing with Peavy seems to be that he wants to stay in the National League, so that doesn’t help the Jays.
- Alan the stat geekHi Mike,
The yankees series last week and the Sox series this week is proving once and for all that the Jays are pretenders in the AL East and cannot play with the big boys. Brett Cecil is clearly not ready for the big leagues and should be buried in the minors. Cito should have started Halladay on 2 days rest to open the series and we wouldn’t be where we are now.
Vernon Wells and Alex Rios once again showed that they are only hitters during blowouts and should each be dealt away for pitching.
..is this what you expected on Jays talk, Mike?
and now, for my real post….
As I see it, game 1 was really close so it could have gone either way. Last night was a butt kicking and these things happen over the course of a long season. Tonight, one would look at a Lester vs Ray match up and think that this will easily be a sweep with the Sox pelting the green monster with frozen ropes all night off Ray. This could happen for sure butr one never knows. Lester has been shaky so far this season and the Jays have had success against him. last season, they ruined him twice in Toronto so we’ll have to see. if they get swept, oh well, not the end of the world and you’re right, most expected the Jays to be battling the Orioles for last place so I’ll enjoy the first place standing while it lasts.
As for the upcoming Braves series, I would like to see the Jays complete a sweep of the series only because of Chipper Jones and his comments about Toronto.
MW: That really is what I expected on The JaysTalk last night, and I was really surprised I didn’t get it.
- Ian from Whitbyhey mike,
everyone is talking about jake peavy but i think that is too much of a stretch for us. what do you think about getting erik bedard if we are still contending come july
thanks
MW: The problem with Bedard, beyond the fact that he seems to be a world-class jerk, is that he’s a pane of glass.
- markWhen do you, Mike, believe it is rational to send Cecil or Ray down in order to bring up a pitcher that is more likely to pitch consistently well? And when I say likely, I base that on their past track record and current minor league stats.
I am not a huge Janssen fan, but he has definitely earned a spot in this rotation. If Cecil has another garbage outing in Baltimore. Is that then the time to bring up Janssen? I think Ray and Cecil have done well on an interim basis. But I am a little tired of being uneasy about what you might see during their starts. Janssen I believe should be a little more consistent overall. @ the very least, my mind would be more @ ease.
MW: Why would you write in proper English but use @ to replace the word “at”? I don’t understand such things. I would have liked to have seen Janssen here already, and I think he would have been had Ray not pitched SO well against the White Sox on Sunday.
- DooloxBOSTON – NESN colour commentator and former Major League reliever Dennis Eckersley was fired this afternoon following offensive comments he made during Tuesday’s broadcast regarding Jason Frasor’s stature.
According to an NESN spokesperson, the personnel move was necessary after fans criticized Eckersley on a Toronto sports blog page. “Our ratings depend heavily on our Canadian viewers, and when they express serious concerns we have to answer the bell”.
I predict this will be coming off the wire this week…
Also Mike, great point about how Jays fans deal with Vernon/Rios vs. how Sox fans receive a slumping Ortiz.
Tom.
- TomMike,
This might be irrational but when Jay Bay took Cecil deep, and I mean deep, it looked to me that he knew what was coming. Given that the Sox hit four homers in that inning, including back to backers and David O’s first, what are the chances that Cecil was tipping his pitches?
MW: There’s a concern that Cecil gives too much of his grip away when he drops his left hand in his wind-up, but if it’s true, hitters have only been able to take advantage of it that one inning.
- JWHey Mike. That was a suprisingly sane Jaytalk last night. Lets hope that keeps up for the whole season! Have you ever seen the ESPN mini series called The Bronx is Burning about the Yankees 1977 championship run and the Son of Sam?
MW: I haven’t. But I did see Spike Lee’s “Summer of Sam”.
- Matt from BChey Mike;
Just wanted to drop a line and say I wasn’t that dismayed with cecil- he is after all a rookie and he has had less than 6 starts, he is a gamer for sure, just wondering if they demote him and bring up janssen? The hitting seems to have cooled off, and this was what put the jays in first place. Maybe cito will tinker with the lineup? who knows- anyway great job mike- and GO JAYS GO.
MW: Cito won’t tinker with the line-up, and I don’t think Cecil gets sent down just yet.
- robert.sWM – Look at where the Jays are, look at where you expected them to be at this point, and take a deep breath.
Mike, it’s important to consider that not everybody is obligated to follow the Jays like you do. Most people were likely figuring Jays would be 19-24 by now and tussling it out for 4th place with the Orioles. They would be focused on the NHL playoffs, NBA playoffs, the Toronto Football Club, Mixed Martial Arts, the Ultimate Fighting Challenge…..you know important stuff like that. The fact that the Jays are playing like the 1983 to 1993 Jays is a pleasant surprise, and many people who are following them now expect continued winning….not a major letdown when the schedule gets tough. So 1-4 against the Red Sox and Yankees starts making people think that they should start checking out the NFL draft. Many Blue Jay fans are just a tad nervous that this early season record is a bit of a mirage. Certainly checking our the BABIP for most of their hitters and pitchers would suggest that a lot of players are about to face a severe reality check. And no matter how you define tough opponents or weak opponents, the schedule takes a severe turn and actually becomes very challenging at the end of June and continues right to the end of the season.
Time will tell, but cautious optimism is the way to view this team so far. If the Jays exploit the free-agent market, resign the Doc (best RHP in baseball), get an effective Marcum and McGowan back….they will be serious contenders in 2010, on merit, and not have to rely on fortuitous fluctuations in random luck portion of baseball. Another factor that has led to the Jays early success in the lack of injuries to position players and replacements out-performing the incumbents when pitchers go down.
MW: I like your second paragraph a lot. As for the first, whether people are obligated to follow the Jays like I do or not, most casual fans thought the Jays were going to be awful this season and they’re now in first place, so I’m going to say my statement stands.
- the stat ladyI think the Jays should send Cecil down, not because he was terrible the other day but because: 1. he could use the AAA experience – he had so few AAA starts, 2. although he looked good in his first few starts he didn’t pitch well at all in AAA to start this year, 3. I think they are looking for an opportunity to bring up Jannsen who has proven to be able to get major leaguers out, albeit as a reliever.
Two ideas: Either bring up another hitter for interleague play, it never hurts to have another hitter on the bench. (They could bring up Harper or Coats.)They would then bring up Jannsen to pitch in Cecil’s spot following the Braves series.
Or they could bring up Jannsen now and have him pitch Friday, pushing Halladay forward so that he would pitch against Boston, lining up arguably the Jays three (current)best starters to face the Red Sox (Halladay, Richmond, and Tallet). What do you think?
Also you never answered my question about whether you thought it is possible for Cecil to change his delivrey so that he doesn’t expose his pitching hand as much, assuming it were necessary for him to do so.
MW: I think it’s possible, I’m not sure it’s necessary. It’s an interesting idea to bring up a hitter for Cecil for interleague and bring up Janssen on the other side, but I would think that if you’re going to move around the rotation to get Halladay a start against the Red Sox, you’d prefer to just bump him from that last start against Baltimore.
- Steve from NJHey Mike,
What Big-Name Players(hitters) do you think will become available on the trade block, that the Blue Jays might want to pursue, if they can keep this up?
Adrian Gonzalez is one of the players that I can think of.
I was just wondering what you thought
MW: I haven’t really gotten my mind around to that yet. I don’t think the Jays will be major players at the deadline.
- JazzOnly 6 major league teams were above .500 on the road last year…(LAA, NYY, PHI, NYM, CHC, MIL) Not all is lost if they lose all three against Boston,or hopefully 2 out 3. Plus Boston has always had the reputation of being a VERY good team at home..whats your opinion on this?
MW: Of course all isn’t lost if they get swept in Boston.
- AdamMike,
- JoshCouldn’t agree more about people needing to remain calm.
Last year by this point in the season the Jays were 4-2 against the Red Sox. Also, Boston won both their games by only one run each time whereas the Jays beat them in convincing fashion.
Of course we all know how that turned out for the Jays in the end.
It’s a loooong season and while it would be nice to win every game, losses will happen… especially when you have 3 rookies and a former reliever in your rotation.
Mike, I loved the way you described Boston’s Home runs in your 20/20 updates last night. It was really cool.
Hanley Ramirez was no.5? in the sporting news list. I havent seen him play much for obvious reasons. How good is he defensively and offensively? Is he a better shortstop defensively than Derek Jeter, of let’s say, late 90s and early 2000s? Overall, I’d like you to compare Ramirez to the young Jeter. Thanks
MW: He’s much better. I didn’t do any 20/20 updates last night.
- BeburgMike,
You were right, another solid start for Tallet the other day. I must say he is starting to grow on me. I really liked him in long relief and it looks like I may end up really liking him in the starting rotation.
Tough one for Cecil. It hurt to see him get knocked around like that all in 1 inning! Here’s hoping he can bounce back a la Scott Richmond. Its times like these I’m glad he has got Roy and Arnsberg to fall back on for support.
Love your show and I’m relatively new to the blog but enjoying it as well. Must say though, it does at times make me ashamed to be a Jays fan. All of this hating on Wells/Rios/Jays not being able to play with big boys needs to stop. Wells and Rios are two amazing ball players and we’re(I, for one, completely disagree with your insistence that fans use ‘they’ rather than ‘we’) extremely fortunate to have them. I can assure you many teams would be more than happy to take them off our hands. Rios is tearing the cover off the ball lately and come season end I have no doubt Wells approaches .300/25/100. One look at the fans in Fenway park is you all you need to determine that a whole lot of Jays fans flat out stink. Enough with the bashing, seriously.
I think the Jays have played real competitive with the Red Sox so far this series, save for 1 inning, just as they did in the Yanks series. I’m not concerned, so long as the pitching keeps finding a way.
I sincerely hope Ray mows them down tonight but if the team suffers a second straight blowout we’d better see Janssen real soon.
Keep up the good work.
- ChrisI want to see Cecil demoted. As you may or may not remember, I didn’t want him up in the first place. And this is NOT knee-jerk – I just think it would be better for his future to be in Vegas for a while, and better for the Jays right now to have Janssen or Romero up. Romero I would have on a short leash as well.
Nobody thought Cecil would be up this early for good reason – he shouldn’t be. Romero probably shouldn’t be either but I, personally, don’t consider him to have the upside or the age advantage. The Jays (I almost said “we”) are having a great year but think of the year they could have in 2010. Yes, I know, if the Jays are still in such a position in a month and a half I won’t be thinking about 2010…
But Mike, if you’d answer the question and not pick on some error I probably made – would you keep Cecil up? If you’ve answered the question on the JaysTalk I missed just ignore it. Just please, no smart-aleck comments, I just want your opinion.
MW: Why would you think I would come back with a smart-aleck comment? That was a fine question. I would keep Cecil up, for at least one more start. I didn’t expect him to be here so early, but I’ve been very, very impressed with him for all but that one inning. He deserves the chance to stick around, and I don’t see it as detrimental to his future if he does.
- Wyatt BaileyMike,
1) You get a lot of people asking the same questions, both on The JaysTalk and here on the blog. Stuff like when Marcum and McGowan will be back, if you think Vernon Wells should be hitting third, if the Jays should pick up a starting pitcher via trade and the list goes on. I’ve also noticed that there are callers that say “long time listener, first time caller” and then proceed to ask you a question that you’ve answered dozens of times. Have you ever thought that some of these callers aren’t telling the truth about their long time listener claim? I swear there have been times where a guy asks you a question that was answered on that very show. How do you not say to them “If you’re a long time listener, haven’t you heard me answer this question before?”?
2) A bit off-topic but you should get the guy that does all the voice overs on the Fan590 (I think his name is Andy Neill) to do an intro to The JaysTalk. Your show deserves that in my opinion. “You’re listening to The JaysTalk on the Fan590.” What do you think?
Take care!
MW: 1 – When someone says they’re a long-time listener, I don’t think it means that they’ve listened intently to every show for a long time. I remember that more than a few people told me that they listen to me all the time on 680 when I’d been at the Fan for three or four years. 2 – That’s not up to me.
- PatrickMW: And that’s interesting on “edicit”, not what I expected at all. Though it’s not an “alternative” spelling, it’s an “incorrect” spelling.
Really !!
MW: Evidently. Hey, the commenter suggested it was an alternative spelling, not me.
- KitMike
Love your show
Do you think that in order for the Jays to make a big splash at the trade deadline (lets say for example Prince Fielder, since Matt Gamel could take his spot) would they need more attendance at games in order to do it?
Would you like a Prince Fielder-type player in the middle of the lineup?
MW: I’d love a Prince Fielder-type player in the middle of the line-up, but that doesn’t mean the Brewers will be looking to deal him. I don’t know that the Jays would look to make a big splash, money-wise, at the deadline if they were only drawing 22,000 a game or so.
- KeithI really hope the jays can win today. I don’t think the NESPN announcers know how good the jays are.
I haven’t been able to listen last couple days but are you getting less and less calls about how bad Rios is. Expect more calls about Wells.
- VJeyHey Mike, I love the laying down of the law with regards to the use of “We”s and “Us”s as fans continue to discuss the team as if they were in that starting 9 every night…Have you considered making it a rule? Use 3 “we”‘s and you’re out? Perhaps it’s not worth the disclaimer at the beginning of every JaysTalk or having rehash it for every caller, but it’s something I’d love to see. Nothing is more amateur than speaking like Hawk Harrelson on national radio…
MW: And yet, see above. Some people vehemently disagree with you.
- PatIs he Robert Ray?
Is he Bobby Ray?
Is he Jimmy Ray?
I’m off to the ballpark and then the arena, so I’m going to miss most of tonight’s game. Here’s hoping we… they… whatever… get at least one against those stupid Bostons. (Nothing against the people out there, I just want my team to beat theirs)
their’s? theirs’?
MW: Theirs, I think. I could be wrong, though.
- Dilly in Dundasthe home run by jason bay actually was an easy fly ball out. the ball hit the low wall and bounced out. alex was standing right there with his glove up and just missed it. he is 6’6 and the wall is about 4 feet. there is no way he should have missed that.
MW: I’m not sure you could be more wrong about that. There was nothing easy about that play.
- pabloHey Mike
Doc should not be watching a 3 game series vs. the Boston Red Sox. Its not a stretch to assume he would have shut down the BoSox, he usually dominates every team he faces. Cito should have tweaked the rotation to get Doc on the mound as a Jay win means Boston only picks up 1 game instead of 3 during the series.
MW: It’s a stretch to assume he would have shut out the Red Sox. If you’re so weak that you have to start your ace on short rest in May, then you’re not going to be there at the end anyway.
- rickmike,
do batting gloves have any protection? i assume they can be torn really badly with the amount of force by a diving (batter-runner) with the ones available to me at the regular sports store. in the majors they do hav special, durable batting gloves, right? Even me, a 130-pounder, ripped through a pair awhile ago during a game on a head-first dive.
I play a lot of games. A lot of the time, it has rained the night before, therefore the outfield of grass is plenty wet and soaking. In MLB, do they have a change of socks every 2-3 innings in a rainy park? It seems to give really uncomfortable feelings in the soles of my feet.
MW: Big leaguers get dozens of pairs of batting gloves at a time, but I don’t think theirs are any tougher than yours. In the major leagues, fields have really good drainage systems, so they rarely have to worry about wet socks.
- TheSunkenZealotmike, these last 2 games are a perfect example of why obp is completely useless. jays have same number of hits as the red sox but have been outscored handily. why? because they have been outslugged. homers and doubles score runs not singles. jays get 2 singles then that’s it. ex yestedays game jays obp .365 slug .475 bos obp .475 slug 1.000 the big difference was in slug %
MW: There sure was, but there was a big difference in obp, too. But yes, that one game, in which a team hit five home runs and won by five, clearly illustrates that obp is useless.
- pabloCan we please fire Cito today? We really need to run this clown out of town as quickly as possible.
The decision of not to start Halladay is a disgrace and an outrage. I know what you said about it being a “panic move”, and I have heard you go on and on like a broken record about how it is just a 3-game series and there is much more baseball to be played. Nonsense. Each game against Boston is a 2 game swing. Someone needs to tell Cito the genius that. Having Halladay pitch (and win) today’s game would have been the difference between leaving Boston with a 2 1/2 game lead vs. what we have now, a 1/2 game lead. Don’t tell me that it isn’t important. We could have had the best pitcher in the majors going, instead we get Robert Ray of “3 earned runs in the first inning” fame.
The Jays are winning in spite of Cito. Mike, I know you have been critical of him, but I am sure you don’t feel as strongly as I do. I mean, seriously, who ever heard of a manager who doesn’t use his bench? Who ever heard of a manager who hardly ever pinch hits? It has gotten so bad that I was actually surprised that he pinch ran McDonald for the Captain. When it has come to that point, it is time for him to go.
I know what they have done since he got here, but it is only a matter of time before his style of managing starts to cost them (like tonight, for example).
Lastly, don’t you dare tell me he is a great manager because of those 2 World Series wins. I could have managed those teams to victory. Why am I so sure??? Because I am fully capable of writing White, Alomar, Molitor, Carter, and Olerud on a line-up card every night, just like the great Cito did.
MW: You most certainly could not have. That’s been a major criticism of Cito for years and it’s thoroughly ridiculous. We’ve seen many times the clear favourite, star-studded team fail to get the job done in the end. Having those players certainly didn’t guarantee a World Series victory. And honestly, you need to take a breath. The decision not to start your ace on three days’ rest ON MAY 21ST is a disgrace and an outrage? Please.
- GriffHey Mike,
I was just wondering why the Jays did not let Halladay start Thursday nights game against Boston on three days rest. Especially since he had 5 days rest before his last start. This was an important series for the Jays. Let me know what you think.
MW: See above. There was no reason to start Halladay on three days’ rest.
- Tim Sinyardhere is todays example
tor obp .358 slug .324
bos obp .250 slug .387
tell me how boston scored 5 runs with such a low obp? you keep saying that as long as you dont get out that’s all that matters. I beg to differ.
mike I would bet you that if you checked every game, the team that has the higher slug% wins most of the games. I would be happy to do the calculations and prove it to you after every game.
MW: That’s pretty interesting. I would, in fact, like to see that – if you’re willing to do it after every game. Assuming your numbers are right. I would also posit, though, that the team with the higher OBP will also win most of the games.
- pabloI agree with not starting Halladay on 3 days rest, especially since (if my memory is accurate) Halladay has not fared well in Boston. Let him get in the late-summer groove before we see him face off against Boston.
That being said, I don’t want Ray up here any more than I want Cecil up here. We gave Cecil and Ray a leash and it is up. It is time to see what Janssen and Romero can do. Let Cecil hopefully progress in Vegas, and let Ray do… well, whatever.
- Wyatt BaileySorry Mike, I “we”‘ed. I hope you can settle with this massive character flaw.
MW: There are adult diapers for that.
- Wyatt BaileyBases Empty: 2543 PA .282/.324/.469/.793
Men On: 2280 PA .282/.339/.487/.826
RISP: 1359 PA .277/.342/.485/.827
This is not as impressive as it might seem at first glance. Everybody hits better with men on base in the long run. It’s also why hitting often seems contagious. A pitcher typically has runners on base and is scoring position when he is pitching poorly, thus the hitters will always appear to be hitting better in those situations.
let’s keep things in perspective and appreciate the fact that – even in a slump – he’s doing more for our team (in the field & at the plate) than Teixeira.
Hey, take a look at Teixeira’s stats, then look at Rios’. Not close.
MW: You might want to put quotes around the things you’ve copied so that people will know which are your thoughts and which are the ones to which you’re reacting. But it’s true, Teixeira has really come on after a lousy start.
- the stat lady#62. I meant your report during 20/20 updates.
So you are saying Hanley Ramirez is much better than Jeter in his prime?
MW: Yes.
- Beburgis ERA a really good indication of a pitcher?
or is it just that you can give up a couple of hits and a walk
and get out of every bases loaded jam you’ve pitched into in your life, or had someone get out of ‘the previous pitchers’ jam. That ERA stays at 0.
Also, defensive plays have a large impact on ERA, say a diving effort by an outfielder could score a run, but if he let the ball drop the runner wouldve only advanced to 2B or 3B.
So if you’re really lucky,
people can have the largest WHIP in the world, and yet have a zero ERA.
I think ERA is misleading, that’s all. Same for W-L record. But I can save that for another essay.
MW: ERA is misleading, but not as much as W-L record.
- TheSunkenZealotI agree with Mike bout Halladay. What’s with ppl even bringing that up?? it is 1 game out of a 162 game season and ppl are talking about starting Halladay on 3 days rest-are they flippin crazy?? If the team is so bad that they have to rely entirely on Halladay then this team shouldn’t even be in 1st place or 2nd or 3rd.
MW: Bingo.
- badbloodWoops, I will ‘see above’ before I ask another question.
I dont think I care for Griffs comments about Cito. I hate to think I thought the same way as Griff about starting Halladay after only 3 days rest. I still think it would have been a good idea even though it is so early in the season. But there is still much ball to be played. I sure hope this series does not hurt the Jays confidence too much.
MW: If you “see above” before you ask a question, you might not always get your answer. Since comments get posted approx. 100 at a time, often a question that was asked by, say, the 30th commenter, is also asked by, say, the 54th, 68th, 77th and 96th. But none of them know someone else has asked it.
- Tim SinyardMichael,
I just wondered, the compensation picks that the Jays got for Burnett, where are those in the draft?
MW: One of them is between the first and second rounds, the other is the Yankees’ third-round pick.
- Uncle BenMW: That’s pretty interesting. I would, in fact, like to see that – if you’re willing to do it after every game. Assuming your numbers are right. I would also posit, though, that the team with the higher OBP will also win most of the games.
it’s pretty obvious that if you score a lot of runs you will probably be getting on base as well. the question is which stat had a higher impact on the runs? for ex. yesterday, boston had both higher obp and slug, but the diff in obp was .110 and the diff in slug was .525, so I dont think you can argue that the main reason was obp, I think it was clearly the slug%. but for today you are wrong because obp didnt win out.
- pabloThe “we” comment is still under moderation! This isn’t TV-G, let it rip.
And while you’re at it, respond to my previous comment.
- Wyatt BaileyOh, foot in mouth, it’s up now.
So are you as glad as I am that Peavy didn’t go to the White Sox? I realize the Jays are finished playing them, but hell, I want Peavy damn it.
MW: Peavy’s not coming here.
- Wyatt Bailey“If you’re so weak that you have to start your ace on short rest in May, then you’re not going to be there at the end anyway.”
Mike, you wrote this earlier tonight. I was wondering if you then think that the Jays rotation right now is not weak?? Surely a rotation that has seen 8 or 9 different pitchers in the first month and a half, several being rookies can be seen as weak. Cito should have started Halladay tonight because are rotation right now is weak but will become stronger once guys like Janssen, Romero, Litsch, McGowan?? start coming back.
Also, if the rotation is not mixed around Halladay would miss the next Red Sox series too. Dont you think that sometimes pitchers are ‘babied’ too much? Surely Halladay could handle a few starts after only 3 days rest. Ive played ball for years and know the toll pitching takes on your arm but it seems that these days pitchers are protected way too much.
MW: You haven’t played ball like Roy Halladay has, or anyone at that level. I’m sorry, but there’s just no comparison. As I said on the show last night, there’s never a good reason to start your ace on three days’ rest on May 21st. Never.
- Tim Sinyard7/9 past games jays have failed to score more than 3 runs. is this the return of the 2008 jays?
MW: If it is, then all that Cito magic is gone, I guess.
- pabloHey Mike,
Just wondering if any Blue Jay pitcher (past or present) has ever employed the “Eephus pitch”?
MW: Not on a regular basis. I think Miguel Batista might have tried it once or twice.
- Phil Russell
———-
In the Eephus Pitch article in Wikipedia, it says Dave Steib used it.
MW: Stieb. And not with any kind of regularity he didn’t.
- Alan the stat geekhey mike, you said that halladay is the only legit pitcher on the team right? so that means in 8 years JP had not developed 1 legit pitcher? and gord ash developed how many? halladay escobar carpenter…if the jays dont win 90 games this year JP has to go.
MW: Yeah, it’s all J.P.’s fault. It’s not like Marcum or McGowan or Janssen or Romero or Litsch or Richmond or Cecil or Mills or Ray or Rzepczynski or Collins or Castro are any good, were any good or are ever going to be any good.
- pablo23 hits and three runs !@##%@!
Reminds me of last year.
I don’t think Ray was hit all that hard he was just unlucky, with ground balls finding the holes. He probably gets to finish the fifth if not for what happened with Cecil last night.
MW: Ray wasn’t terrible, but he was just OK.
- Steve from NJHI Mike
I’m not going to talk to you about stats. I played baseball and love the game, not numbers that are extracted from it.
Tonight’s umpiring reminded me of watching the Oakland A’s, when people like Jose Canseco, Jason Giambi and Mark McGwire were ruining the game with cheating while those running the team (Beane and Ricciardi were two) looked on.
But tonight, it wasn’t the players (though I suspect Ortiz is fresh off a 3-day cycle) – it was the homeplate and first base umps.
The NBA has had to deal with an FBI investigation into gambling. Baseball, as we know, hides its cheaters and liars and then the apologists, like the baseball reporter for a Toronto ‘national’ newspaper writes that it’s not cheating if ‘everyone’s doing it’? My question to you is what checks are in place to make sure that umpires are not gambling on games and affecting results, like we clearly saw with Hudson’s strike zone when Lester was pitching, and HIrschbeck’s joke call at first?
MW: I didn’t really notice a big swing one way or the other, though as I said I’m sure the pitch f/x will prove me wrong. And what joke call at first?
- Ricky RomeroMW: That’s pretty interesting. I would, in fact, like to see that – if you’re willing to do it after every game. Assuming your numbers are right. I would also posit, though, that the team with the higher OBP will also win most of the games.
You are both right. There is a very high co-relation between both OBP and SLG and team wins. The co-relation between OPS and wins is even higher which is why this is such a good measure of a hitter’s offensive contribution.
But OBP has a slightly higher co-relation with wins than does SLG. Actually, the best predictor of which team will score the most runs is OBA*(1.5) + SLG. So a 350/450/800 team will most likely score more runs than a 300/500/800 team.
- the stat ladyMW: As for the first, whether people are obligated to follow the Jays like I do or not, most casual fans thought the Jays were going to be awful this season and they’re now in first place, so I’m going to say my statement stands.
Sorry Mike, I guess I didn’t my point clear. My point was that casual fans who thought the Jays were going to be awful, would not be following the team at all if that were the case now. They are now paying attention because the Jays are looking good, but they aren’t thanking their lucky stars that the team isn’t sucking, as they would be if they were compelled to follow the Jays fortunes under any and all circumstances, as you are. Nor should they. They would simply ignore the team and find other more interesting things to pay attention to.
MW: I still don’t see it. Casual fans who thought the Jays were going to be awful should be pleasantly surprised that they’re in first place, no? I’ll grant you that if they fall out of the race those fans will lose interest, but they tend not to be interested anyway.
- the stat ladypablo wrote:
here is todays example
tor obp .358 slug .324
bos obp .250 slug .387
tell me how boston scored 5 runs with such a low obp? you keep saying that as long as you dont get out that’s all that matters. I beg to differ.
mike I would bet you that if you checked every game, the team that has the higher slug% wins most of the games. I would be happy to do the calculations and prove it to you after every game.
MW: That’s pretty interesting. I would, in fact, like to see that – if you’re willing to do it after every game. Assuming your numbers are right. I would also posit, though, that the team with the higher OBP will also win most of the games.
———-
Interesting. In the 27 Jays wins so far, the Jays have had the higher OBP 26 times, and the higher SLG 25 times. In the 17 Jays losses, they have had the lower OBP 11 times and the lower SLG 16 times. So SLG has called the winner in 41 of 44 games, while OBP has called the winner correctly in 37 games.
However, it is interesting that in the 6 loss games misclassified by OBP, the average Team LOB was 9.8 and the average of the total individual LOB was 20.7, whereas the one win misclassified as a loss by OBP the TLOB was 4 and the total of the individual LOB was 8. This latter point underscores how important it is to get base runners in.
- Alan the stat geekI will agree with the Thursday night caller who thought that maybe Cecil should not been left in there for the pounding he got.
I was heading home down Hurontario Street around Matheson when Ortiz hit his. By the time Lowell had hit his, and Cito was on his way out I was coming up to Eglinton…only 2-3 minutes away. So quick it was almost funny.
But Gaston really had little choice but to leave him in…it all happened so fast and he had no one ready. I believe it was after the Ortiz home run that Jerry announced Camp getting ready in the bullpen and within a blink of an eye (almost) he’d given up the next two.
When he wins his 140th eleven years from now he’ll look back and probably have to laugh at it himself.
- Rob MTwo random thoughts:
A.
The “Doc on three days” argument overlooks another possibility – Doc on five days.
Slide Janssen into one of the next six games and push Doc back to the first game against the Red Sox, then decide who to drop out of that rotation after the second off-day passes.
2.
I’m cool with Inglett coming up to replace Snider if the Jays want versatility in that job, but here’s another thought that i posted on the blog – how about Arencibia?
Rational:
Item – he’s on fire right now including drawing a lot of walks
Item – having three catchers when you are playing by NL rules isn’t a bad idea
Item – he has the bat to DH in the 19/22 upcoming games in which we use a DH
Item – Barajas would get plenty of chances to DH over the coming month thus presumably giving him much needed rest which would hopefully help him down the stretch (and he was very VERY bad down the stretch last year with the bat)
Item – JPA gets a taste of the bigs without the pressure of “holding his spot” and gets a chance to work with major league coaching which can only help his development
Item – best case scenario it’s Chavez who is sent back on June 22
Item – Inglett has been off the DL (where he has been since April 21) for ONE game. And of the other potential call ups, there’s a better argument for JPA than for any of them by a considerable margin.
This isn’t to say I have anything against Mighty Joe…but his day will come and we need to, as Nicholson said, think about the future here.
MW: A – I think I just brought that up in the comments section. I don’t have a problem with someone (Janssen? Romero?) taking Halladay’s start on Wednessday in Baltimore so that Halladay can start Friday against the Red Sox, but that would be six days’ rest, not five. B – It’s not a bad argument for Arencibia, who has caught fire, but I don’t think Cito will be comfortable having a rookie catcher as his DH, and and I think the Jays want him to continue to build on his hot streak at AAA. I don’t really see the benefit of having Inglett here, though, since Cito doesn’t use his bench. Unless Inglett is going to start in LF against righties once they come out of interleague.
- WillRainFor Pablo:
Use Google Books to search for “Teaching Statistics Using Baseball” (using google books you’ll be able to look at the entire PDF of the book – free).
Scroll to table 4.7 — it shows how good both OBP and SLG were at predicting R/G for the 2000 – in that year OBP was a better at predicting runs than SLG… in other years,SLG is better. They’re about the same. Dayn Perry notes (in the book Winners) that ISO (=SLG-AVG) tends to be more important for winning team s than either OBP or SLG.
- Christopher TaylorHey Mike,
Are you concerned about the bluejays heading itno ATlanta after they got swept in Boston. I mean they only managed 5 runs throughout the whole series and that’s not at all like these BlueJays. Did their bats fall silent or did they run into some great pitching in the series. The Yanks are making a run as well and I think these BlueJays need to forget about the Boston series and just move on because they cannot afford to lose more ball games while the Yanks and Bo-sox are starting to win.
Thanks
MW: The bats didn’t fall silent, they had a bunch of hits. They just didn’t drive in many runs. When neither Vernon Wells nor Adam Lind are hitting with RISP, the Jays appear to be in big trouble, and that’s what happened in Boston. Am I concerned? No. The Jays have swept the following series each time they’ve lost a series this year, and with Roy Halladay going tonight, they’ve got a leg up.
- Hussain P.Mike, I’m finding great difficulty taking any consolation from these bitterly disappoining Boston/NY series. All of a sudden they look like an altogether different team that’s lost their nerve and misplaced their hearts. Boston played like a team deserving of respect and the Jays played like they were just happy to be there. No clutch hitting as opposed to all clutch hitting as provided by the Sox. Mike when all is said and done, there are only two words that can describe this depressing turn of events – June Swoon. Walks like a duck..quacks like a duck..it’s a duck, Mike.
MW: It’s a duck that’s still in first place. I admire your attempts to be reasonable, Vito, but at the end of the day you’re still a knee-jerker.
- VitoFrom HamiltonRed Sox’s can feel really good about themselves, beating a fill in pitcher and two rookie pitchers at home.It will be a different story latter in the year.
- EdwinI encourage you to visit the mockingbird at bjays.wordpress.com
Sure you can say that the Jays should have adjusted to the strike zone being called, but at least admit that that umpiring was poor tonight. Excellent post done at that site showing the difference between Lester and Ray’s called strikes.
MW: It’s not a matter of admitting or failing to admit. I didn’t see it. Of course, I spent most of the game answering 100 comments.
- Chrishi mike
It looked to me that the Jays weren’t ready for the sox.It is good it happened early enough so they can learn from it and understand what it means to go up against a team like the sox,s.Also I think the knuckler really through off the bats.It’s good to see Wells coming out of it.
MW: It looked to me as though the Jays lost three games. I don’t know why so many people insist on reading so much else into it.
- marioI need a mobile version of you Michael. I posted a while ago about us (you & me) not spending enough time together, and you showed me the link to jays talk at the end of the blog. whats the ETA on you getting this as a podcast. I need you at work and on the beach…in a park while eating fish & chips and drinking a pop…i just need more Michael.
and secondly, how awesome is this team gonna be next year. Bunch of young arms coming back and full seasons under the belts of some young hitters. my question is, what kind of moves would you want to make if any over the next year to set the 2010 season up for glory.
MW: I would want to be secure in my shortstop and catcher’s spot, and depending on the health of Marcum and the continued progression of Cecil, I’d want to make sure I had a legitimate # 2 behind Halladay.
- Derrickre ; post 70
Robert Ray, Bobby Ray, etc
You can call him Ray, or you can call him Bobby.
Or you can call him Rob,,,,
Okay, here’s the master of this silly bit……..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoYsfbq3vMc
MW: I still can’t believe that guy got so much traction out of that bit.
- loboMike on Jays talk today a caller said that Ortiz looked different at the plate after he hit the homerun and you told him he was right as if you were accepting this as fact.
What did he do that made him “look” different
Was his batting stance difference?
Or are you just saying he “looked” different because he doubles in his next at bat.
I just didn’t think the statement made sense and was shocked you’d agree with a statement like that.
I mean if he struck out in that at bat (which he did in the next one) would you still say he looked different?
I thought he looked the same.
MW: I thought he looked different. He was taking “mightier cuts”, trying to dictate the at-bats instead of being sort of meek.
I don’t buy it.
But nevertheless, you said to the caller “You’re right” with regards to his opinion that Ortiz looked different during that at bat. This is similar to when you tell callers (only sometimes) that they are wrong for expressing their opinion.
This caller can’t be right by saying that he thought Ortiz looked different at the plate, you can merely agree with him that you also thought Ortiz looked different.
Still think your show rocks and we (the jays) are a pleasure to watch.
MW: Of course the caller can be right, if Ortiz looked different at the plate, which I also thought he did. If he’s talking about the look in his eyes, or him showing more heart or toughness and such then you’re right, it’s his opinion, and can’t be confirmed one way or the other. But if he’s talking about discernable physical things, such as type of swing, etc., then it’s not necessarily an opinion, it’s an observation.
- joshmichael,
hmmm. first real good opportunity to reference 88 fingers louie (one of the great character actors of all time) & get cut off at the knees.
i knew i was a taking a big chance in using the flintstones there.
thanks for settimg me straight michael. i appreciate it. i really do.
MW: You told me not to post it!
- darrell bishopHey Mike,
I’m not a stats guru so forgive me if I’m way off base.
I wanted to get your perspective on left handed vs. right handed pitchers. For our discussion assume that all pitchers have equal talent.
A lot of times especially late in the game Managers go with the righty-righty or lefty-lefty match up b/c in most cases left handed hitters don’t hit well off left handed pitchers and vice versa.
If this is the case and we know most batting line-ups are righty heavy why don’t teams just have 5 right handers as starting pitchers?
Over the last number of years it has seemed as though the Jays have hit poorly against left handed starters. Even the right handed batters. Would you say it’s b/c hitters don’t see lefty’s as much which is much? If this is fairly consistent across most teams, then why wouldn’t teams just load up on 5 lefty starters or as many quality lefty’s they can get?
The bullpen is a different story and should have a mix of lefty’s/righty’s.
If teams are playing the odds why do they go with a 3/2 (righty/lefty) mix?
Thanks for your feedback.
MW: It’s not a given that most line-up are right-heavy, for one, and for some reason (probably because they see them more), right-handed hitters don’t have as much trouble hitting righties as left-handed hitters have hitting lefties.
- AKmike, you said I was wrong to criticize rios for not making the catch at the wall. well guess what I am not the only one. when they dont play well you have to call it like it is.
from the star:
Still in the first, after Kevin Youkilis walked, Ray was betrayed again by his defence.
Jason Bay launched a high drive to right-centre. Alex Rios raced back and along the fence, parallel to the bullpen. He reached up, but pulled away slightly. The ball avoided his outstretched glove, bouncing off the top of the short fence into the stands for a two-run homer. For Bay it was his 12th homer, his 11th in a row with runners on base.
MW: And Mike Rutsey of the Sun agreed, calling the Bay homer a catchable ball. They were there, so I’ll submit to their points of view. Rios, though, said that he couldn’t catch up to it, which was the way I saw it.
- pablo108.May 22nd, 2009 at 10:42 am
Mike on Jays talk today a caller said that Ortiz looked different at the plate after he hit the homerun and you told him he was right as if you were accepting this as fact.
What did he do that made him “look” different
Was his batting stance difference?
Or are you just saying he “looked” different because he doubles in his next at bat.
I just didn’t think the statement made sense and was shocked you’d agree with a statement like that.
I mean if he struck out in that at bat (which he did in the next one) would you still say he looked different?
I thought he looked the same.
MW: I thought he looked different. He was taking “mightier cuts”, trying to dictate the at-bats instead of being sort of meek.
I don’t buy it.
But nevertheless, you said to the caller “You’re right” with regards to his opinion that Ortiz looked different during that at bat. This is similar to when you tell callers (only sometimes) that they are wrong for expressing their opinion.
This caller can’t be right by saying that he thought Ortiz looked different at the plate, you can merely agree with him that you also thought Ortiz looked different.
Still think your show rocks and we (the jays) are a pleasure to watch.
MW: Of course the caller can be right, if Ortiz looked different at the plate, which I also thought he did. If he’s talking about the look in his eyes, or him showing more heart or toughness and such then you’re right, it’s his opinion, and can’t be confirmed one way or the other. But if he’s talking about discernable physical things, such as type of swing, etc., then it’s not necessarily an opinion, it’s an observation
So you agree that it can’t be confirmed yet you told him he’s right.
How can you know that he’s right if you agree that it can’t be confirmed.
At best you can say I think you’re right. But you said you’re right.
That being said, claiming that his swing was “mightier” is really just an opinion. If something can’t be confirmed than it can not be taken as fact with words like “you’re right” Because we don’t know if he is right. Nobody knows.
MW: Read it again. I didn’t agree that it can’t be confirmed.
- joshMW: I still don’t see it.
I see that. You seem to have no idea of what I am trying to say, so my explanation presumably sucks. I admit it is a rather subtle difference, but you don’t see it. So time to let it drop.
MW: OK by me.
- the stat ladyMike on Jays talk today a caller said that Ortiz looked different at the plate after he hit the homerun and you told him he was right as if you were accepting this as fact.
What did he do that made him “look” different
Was his batting stance difference?
Or are you just saying he “looked” different because he doubles in his next at bat.
I just didn’t think the statement made sense and was shocked you’d agree with a statement like that.
I mean if he struck out in that at bat (which he did in the next one) would you still say he looked different?
I thought he looked the same.
MW: I thought he looked different. He was taking “mightier cuts”, trying to dictate the at-bats instead of being sort of meek.
I don’t buy it.
But nevertheless, you said to the caller “You’re right” with regards to his opinion that Ortiz looked different during that at bat. This is similar to when you tell callers (only sometimes) that they are wrong for expressing their opinion.
This caller can’t be right by saying that he thought Ortiz looked different at the plate, you can merely agree with him that you also thought Ortiz looked different.
Still think your show rocks and we (the jays) are a pleasure to watch.
MW: Of course the caller can be right, if Ortiz looked different at the plate, which I also thought he did. If he’s talking about the look in his eyes, or him showing more heart or toughness and such then you’re right, it’s his opinion, and can’t be confirmed one way or the other. But if he’s talking about discernable physical things, such as type of swing, etc., then it’s not necessarily an opinion, it’s an observation
So you agree that it can’t be confirmed yet you told him he’s right.
How can you know that he’s right if you agree that it can’t be confirmed.
At best you can say I think you’re right. But you said you’re right.
That being said, claiming that his swing was “mightier” is really just an opinion. If something can’t be confirmed than it can not be taken as fact with words like “you’re right” Because we don’t know if he is right. Nobody knows.
MW: Read it again. I didn’t agree that it can’t be confirmed.
Sorry, my mistake,
however, claiming that his swing was “mightier” is really just an opinion. You can’t confirm that his swing looked mightier, it’s an opinion. If something can’t be confirmed than it can not be taken as fact with words like “you’re right” Because we don’t know if he is right.
Anyways this is my last comment on the subject it isn’t really blue jays related.
still love the show. i plan on calling in very soon.
- joshLikely on the next west coast swing.
I am what I am, Mike. At the end of the day, I’m happier watching a death defyingly boring game where they’ve won than the most exciting contest ever played where they’ve lost. I’ve got my tickets for Sunday May 31st and I’ll reserve my final judgement on this team until 4:15 pm that afternoon as to how serious a threat they are to contend.
MW: So that’s it, huh? They get one chance. If they win May 31st they’re good to go, but if they play well but lose they’re done. Good to know.
- VitoFrom Hamiltonmichael,
- darrell bishopthat’s cool my friend.
couldn’t imagine that a flintstones reference doesn’t make the grade with you.
i wasn’t as clear as i should have been. no worries.
anyway, tough road trip or what? god this game vexes me sometimes….
hopefully they can win the oriole series & get home back in first again.
later….