11:55 PM Eastern
That’s something that we’re going to have to get used to with the young starting rotation (with the exception of Roy Halladay). Last year, the Jays were 62-12 when they scored at least five runs in a game, but the same rate of success shouldn’t be expected this season.
That said, with tonight’s loss, the Jays are now 8-1 this year when they score at least five runs, so what do I know?
I don’t know, but it’s important to know what you don’t know. What I think, though, is that with guys like David Purcey, Ricky Romero and Scott Richmond in the rotation now (and Brett Cecil, Casey Janssen and Brad Mills in the rotation later) , there are going to be some major bumps in the road, and that’s OK. It’s part of the process, and despite the fact that the Jays are in first place on April 17th, this year is about the process. The results are really gravy, but to this point, the gravy is tasting pretty good. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, gravy.
Purcey was not good tonight, but he could have been a lot better. He needed 28 pitches to get through the first, allowing a run on a hit and a walk, and 20 more to get through a scoreless second, but he seemed to be starting to settle down after that. Even though he hit Ryan Sweeney to lead off the 3rd, he wound up getting out of that inning on only eight pitches, and with a little luck, would have emerged from the 4th unscathed.
With one on and one out in that 4th inning, Purcey ran the count full to Kurt Suzuki, so Bob Geren sent his runner on the 3-2 pitch. With the runner going, Marco Scutaro took off to cover second, and Suzuki hit a ground ball right to where Scutaro had just been. If Geren doesn’t start his runner, or if Aaron Hill covers the steal attempt, that’s an inning-ending double play and everyone is writing a different story tonight. Geren did, and the ball got through, and Purcey wound up walking Mark Ellis to load the bases before serving up a 2-0 cookie that Bobby Crosby hit into the left-centre gap for a three-run triple.
After Scutaro made an absolutely incredible play to short-hop a hot shot up the middle by Sweeney in the dirt cut-out at second base – while he was playing in! – Purcey wild-pitched the tying run home on a play that wound up breaking Michael Barrett.
Poor Barrett, by the way. After all the guy has been through with injuries – he missed most of last year with a broken face as a result of fouling a ball off and yes, he has been on the disabled list recently with an intrascrotal hematoma (cringe with me, I know you just did). Now he busts his shoulder because he landed on a weight in the A’s on-deck circle while making a play on a wild pitch. I feel awful for the guy. I’m sure Raul Chavez is getting on the red-eye from Vegas even as we speak.
So two very poor starts in a row for Purcey but again, it’s part of the process and part of what this year is supposed to be about. The problem for the Jays is that now you have Brian Tallet on about a 75-pitch count starting tomorrow with the bullpen having worked 5 1/3 innings tonight.
So it’s probably Tallet and Bill Murphy for, hopefully, seven, and maybe the Jays can put the wood to rookie Trevor Cahill. At least he’s right-handed, so we’ll get to see Travis Snider.
I really hope that Cito Gaston is just laying the groundwork here for future letting-down-easiness of guys like Jose Bautista and Kevin Millar. I hope that soon we’ll see Snider get the odd start here and there against a lefty, and be used off the bench once the lefty starter is gone. The Jays faced a righty for five innings tonight, a lefty for only four, yet Snider was pinned to the bench the whole time.
I spoke to Cito before the game and he told me that he wasn’t sitting Snider to protect his rookie, he was doing it to make sure Bautista is kept ready. Bautista will start in place of Scott Rolen at third tomorrow, and Cito wants to keep him sharp. It’s a reasonable idea, I guess, if you look past the fact that Bautista isn’t really the guy you want to make sure you’re keeping ready if the alternative is Snider, but the result has been that Snider – who may well wind up being this team’s best hitter as soon as THIS SEASON – has started only seven of the first 12 games this year, or just over half. That is most certainly not what this season is all about.
Again, though, this is part of what Cito Gaston does, part of taking the bad with the good.
By the way, for those who enjoyed the debate last night with the caller who insisted that everything good that has happened since last June is all due to Cito, and with the commenter who thought I was nuts for not believing that managers/coaches have a tremendous influence, here’s what Cito said today about that: “I don’t want to make it sound like it’s me, or it’s Geno (Tenace), or it’s (Dwayne) Murph(y) – it’s the guys. They’re the ones (who are) going up there hitting. We just keep trying to tell them, to get them to see that you need to have a plan when you walk up to that plate.”
Before I go, I have to say how surprised I was by the booing tonight. I just don’t get it, but at least they showed up.
Here’s tonight edition of The JaysTalk, featuring Kelly Wayne Gruber. I’m going to try to at least get all the Flashback Friday guys on to take calls, though I can’t promise complete success. Paul Molitor is the next one scheduled.
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Rational, reasonable comments are always welcome and will be posted during the next game!
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Hi Mike, that was a tough one to watch tonight. I’m taking the family to the park on Sunday (my birthday tradition) and I hope Cito decides to let Snider face the lefty. My 5 year old (the Halladay fanatic) is really starting to dig Snider and we’d love to see him in person. Hope you’re well, keep up the excellent blogage.
MW: Thanks, and happy birthday. But you should really go Saturday if you want to see Snider.
- ChrisHey Mike,
I just have a quick and general question seeing as how you’re going to be aruond for the next hour or so, or at least I think you will since you tend to answer some comments right after writing your post. Anyway, I was just wondering, I can never figure out what kind of conversations take place at 1st base after a single for example. I sure see plenty of chuckles too. I mean I’m creative enough to fill in some blanks sometimes, but most of the time, assuming they’re not good friends and nothing significant enough occured in the game, I wonder what they say to each other. Do you know? Obviously I don’t expect you to know every single conversation, but can you at least give a few examples? If not, then could you possibly as a player or two, or even former players if that makes it easier for you. I hope that’s not too much trouble. Thanks in advance.
MW: I really don’t know, that’s the sort of thing to which mere mortals aren’t privy. I’ll ask around.
- DeanHi Mike,
Purcey is starting to remind me of a Ted Lilly type (i.e., good stuff but eratic control and lacking the required mental focus). I’ve seen no consistency in him start-to-start or even inning-to-inning. The guy had a 4 run lead and couldn’t even throw a strike – he’s not big league caliber IMO.
MW: So you don’t think that Ted Lilly is a big-league calibre pitcher? Because to me if Purcey winds up being Lilly, that’s pretty strong.
- McLovinMike,
Why wasn’t the roof open tonight? The weather was beautiful! If it’s not really cold or raining/snowing, the Dome ought to be open.
MW: It depends on your definition of “really” cold. I think the players and fans should be comfortable, and if it’s below 15 degrees, that’s cold. I’m sure it’ll be open for the day games, though.
- Jake RothYou know what’s strange Mike? Purcey did not throw many fastballs last night at all. He threw lots and lots of off-speed pitches and different types of breaking pitches instead, which he couldn’t get over for strikes, yet he kept throwing them.
The weird part? The pitch calls were definitely coming from the dugout. You could see this clearly on TV.
MW: The pitch calls weren’t coming from the dugout. Pitchouts and throws over to first come from the dugout.
- McLovinYour right that Ted Lilly is a decent No. 3/4 starter on a good team – and could give you innings (when healthy). But Ted was a bit of a flake and could be easily distracted by a big lead or by a Posada yelling at him from the dugout (I hate Posada by the way). Purcey’s raw stuff is maybe better than Ted’s, but he’s much more wild and can’t (at least yet) give you innings.
MW: My right what? And give Purcey some big-league time before you decide his fate, he is in his first full season, and it takes time to develop.
- McLovinI believe Purcey wild-pitched the tying run not the winning run.
MW: You’re right – I’ll go fix that.
- ColinMike, let’s go again here: Have you had a chance yet to read the new Clemens book? If you have, what did you think? I don’t believe that you’ve ever commented on it.
For me, the part in the book about Clemens throwing at the minor league batter’s head was really sick and disturbing to me. Also, the chapters in the book that cover Clemens’ Toronto years kind of needlessly slam Toronto as a baseball town. In support of his argument, the author quotes several ex-Jays from the late 90′s era.
MW: What’s going on with signing in with a different name every time?
- Huck FlenerMike,
I didn’t hear the conversation about Cito as I live in Australia these days and am 12 hours different. So my appologies for the long post about a conversation I didn’t even hear but hey, I am about as far away from the Jays as you can get so cut me some slack, mate.
Yes the players deserve much credit but when will this man get his due? He takes what he has and gets the most out of it. Exactly what he gets paid to do and unlike many others, he is very good at it. I have heared you speak on Cito many times and I know you are a fan of much of what he does but the man waited a long time for another opportunity, let him soak it up while he can. Even if his piece of pie is bigger than it should be right now. While it might not be easy to quantify it in today’s stats driven game, over the course of 162 games you have to be able to manage people. Your example of how he speaks to umpires is exactly why he has had some succes, he knows the umpire is a human being and it is a long season and he does not want to burn any bridges. Maybe the majority of managers have little impact on W-L records but there are two times that is not true: when have a bad one and when you have a good one. Cito will always give the credit to the players, that’s why they play well for him. Don’t be afraid to correct him every now and then.
I’ll throw another shrimp on the barbie for you Mike. I miss my Jays but it is 30 degrees here today…did I mention that it is fall?
W.
MW: When will the man get his due? It’s true that he didn’t get nearly enough recognition for his good work the first time around, but he’s been getting nothing but his due every since he took over again.
- W.C.Michael of the Ballyard:
“I don’t want to make it sound like it’s me, or it’s Geno (Tenace), or it’s (Dwayne) Murph(y) – it’s the guys. They’re the ones (who are) going up there hitting. We just keep trying to tell them, to get them to see that you need to have a plan when you walk up to that plate.”
Come on, let’s be serious here. Surely, surely, surely, Cito wasn’t going to say ‘oh yes, it was all us.’ That quotation is not a reasonable starting point to a discussion regarding the impact of a coaching staff, anymore than the Rays claiming they were going easy on the Yankees is a reasonable starting point in determining whether or not they really were, because everyone knows they wouldn’t admit that they couldn’t hit Nick Swisher if that were the case. Everyone knows Cito’s public comments on the situation would be modest.
Tonight, Rance Mulliniks was talking about how most of the guys that played under Cito truly learned to hit at the major league. I’m not sure if you watch the SportsNet feed of the games, but at one point or another I’ve heard all of the players-turned-colour-guys specifically note very, very important differences in both individual players’ and the team’s collective whole’s approach to hitting since the coaching change was made. I know Tabler specifically mentioned it during the Minnesota series. They specified APPROACH, *not* results.
I’m pretty sure that Rance Mulliniks and Pat Tabler know more about baseball than you and I combined ever will, Mike.
I’m also pretty sure that you’d be the first to agree that Matt Stairs, who actually SAID that the old regime’s approach to teaching hitting was negatively impacting the team, is a class act and the LEAST likely candidate to throw his coaches under the bus to duck accountability for his and his teammates’ failures.
You seriously need to give some ground on this thing.
MW: I agree with you on Mulliniks and Tabler, and Stairs, too. But Stairs didn’t say that the Gary Denbo approach impacted negatively on the team, he said it impacted negatively on him. And you’ll remember too that last year Denbo was blamed specifically for Alex Rios’ struggles, and yet, here’s Rios having the same problems this season, if not worse. Cito wasn’t being modest when he said what he did, he was being truthful.
- JCLmike, this offense is being carried by 4 players, scutaro, hill, snider, lind, who have more than half the teams rbi’s. the core group of rios, wells, overbay, rolen are not doing a whole lot, on pace for about 80 rbis. these are the veteran guys who are supposed to be producing. Unless these guys pick it up the offense will go cold very quick when the top 4 cool off. and rios is looking horrible. I have never understood his weird scrouched stance and leaning back when he swings. even cito has talked about his shifting his weight back. I have never seen any player shift backwards when they swing. this is rios’ 6th season. he should not be struggling. he should be an established player by now and not waiting for his potential. almost all his hits are ground balls. he rarely hits a fly ball. hard to hit ground ball home runs. I remember the knock on rios when he first came up was he couldn’t hit for power. well we are still waiting. I don’t think rios will ever be a consistent 20 homer 100 rbi guy, more like a 15 hr 80 rbi max which is not worth 10 mil per year so I would trade him and get a decent pitcher in return. outfielders are a dime a dozen. tabler also said rios was hitting moon shots in batting practice. I find this hard to believe. have you seen this? How is it he is hitting moon shots in practice then hits ground balls when the game starts?
MW: Rios does hit moon shots during batting practice, and he does it on a regular basis. I love that you think he’s a 15-homer max guy when he hit 24 two years ago. Outfielders may be a dime a dozen, but he’s not a dime-a-dozen outfielder – he may be the best in the business, defensively. Also, are you seriously basing your assessment of who’s carrying the offense on RBI totals? Rolen is hitting .326/388/.512, Wells is hitting .327/.389/.510 and Overbay has a .375 obp.
- chubbyMike,
It’s not what you know, it’s what you think you know that isn’t so.
Thanks for following up on my suggestion to bring the Flashback Fridays guys on after the game. I hope they all cooperate. I’m excited about listening to Kelly.
- Jim in OhioHey Mike,
I’ve been meaning to ask you about this baseball idea of mine. I don’t know if it’s been suggested before, but here goes:
Since left handed batters have something like a 4 foot advantage (their box is closer to 1B than the righty’s box and their momentum takes them towards 1B), what do you think of adjusting 1B depend on which side the hitter bats? The players would run counter-clockwise when a right handed hitter is up and run normally when a lefty is up.
If a player is already on base, he moves to the newly adjusted base. Since all bases are separated by 90 feet, I think this idea works.
I really think this idea works, but baseball has been around for over 100 years, and something like the DH rule was difficult to implement. Also, this might require A LOT of substitution (a team might need a left and right handed throwing catcher and 1B alternative based on the match up).
What do you think of this idea? I’d love to have you comment on this.
Thanks
MW: I’ll be kind and say it’s too radical a change.
- James from Mississaugai did check fan590.com for 10 quest with rou but no luck can you pls let me knnow if they are up?
MW: I’ll remind the team to put it up.
- nickHi Mike,
I might take some flak over this comment/question, but do you think Toronto is a good baseball town? Or for that matter…was Montreal?
The people on this board are diehard baseball fans (or at least Blue Jay fans)and we tend to assume that a quick season start like this year would translate into increased numbers going to the games. The only problem is, I think we are a huge minority. I’m not sure there’s enough of us out there.
I grew up with the Jays and was a diehard fan. Still am, despite living in Oz since 1993. When I go back to Toronto I try and see as many games as possible, but it’s wierd. All my friends who used to love going to games as much as me have absolutely zero interest in going..none. And that applies to their kids which is a shame.
I wouldn’t have pegged a lot of these people as fairweather/bandwagon fans so I think it just comes down to the fact that there just isn’t a lot of interest in baseball in Toronto anymore.
The second game of the WBC is a case in point. The Canada-US had obvious “us vs them” overtones” and was always going to be packed, but the 2nd game where no-one showed up was still about baseball at the national level. The attendance at that game was embarassing and should have been a real eye-opener of concern to Baseball Canada.
Having said that, I enjoy going to Jays games more now than I did in 1989-1993 simply because the fans are real fans and more into it than many of the old sellout crowd who were there just because it was cool.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that Toronto/Canadian fans are great baseball fans. I just don’t think that Toronto or even Canada is a great baseball town/country.
Writers point towards the 1994 strike as having more of a negative impact amongst fan perception of baseball and game attendance in Canada than the US…my question is why?
I just think if the Blue Jays were somehow to start stinking out the joint for 5-10 years in a row, attendance would decline pretty precipitously and I wonder if we’d ever go the way of the Expos.
Do you think I am completely wrong about this?
Sorry for the ramble. It just bothers me why more people don’t go to the games.
MW: I think you’re right. I don’t think Toronto is a baseball town, nor do I think it’s a hockey town. The Maple Leafs rule the roost and everything else is secondary. I think we’re overhockeyed as a country, and somewhere along the line baseball became “uncool”. If the Jays were a perennial playoff team, it’d come back, but it wouldn’t be firmly ingrained – it never will be.
- OzRobMW: Again, though, this is part of what Cito Gaston does, part of taking the bad with the good.
Sigh.
MW: My thoughts exactly.
- isabella reyesThe walks from guys like Percy and League are driving me nuts. I am glad Cito has no tolerance for walks, they seem to irritate him a great deal.
With no one on base, I’d rather see a fast ball down the middle than a walk.
MW: Depending on the score, but yeah. Walks are no good.
- J.RMike,
I realize the season is a marathon, not a sprint, but the pattern for 2009 is already clear: the Jays’ offense will score a lot of runs, but the starting pitching is too thin to enable the team to compete. And unless something is done to fix the situation, it will impact on the bullpen.
Sure it’s only April, but it’s not too early for JP (and Rogers) to start looking seriously for another starter. Trade some prospects or deal from strength (the bullpen, maybe?) to get some pu\itching help. How about looking at Pedro?
My point is that the Jays look as if they can be competitive in the AL East, but it will take a bit of help for them to do so. I think Rogers would be well advised to spend a bit of money now–sooner rather than later–to make money in ’09. Do you agree or disagree?
MW: I disagree, unless they can bring in a starting pitcher who will be of long-term benefit. You can’t allow a hot start to change your thinking, because that could really mess you up long-term. Remember, too, Casey Janssen and Brett Cecil will be here soon, and so might Brad Mills be.
- Ken in KingstonMike,
Perhaps if Purcey stopped
chewing gum while pitching on the mound (rarely seen) he would be able to concentrate
more on the catcher’s target and batter.
MW: Yeah, that’s it.
- MarkBy the way, Mike (further to my earlier e-mail). . .
I live in eastern Ontario. I sure wish there was a radio station in this area that carried Jays’ game and your post-game show.
I’ve asked the local Rogers station if there are any plans to join the Jays’ radio network. Nope.
Rogers sure isn’t making it easy to follow the Jays. I can easily tune into Yankee games, Mets games, Phillies games, Red Sox games . . . but no Jays unless I am in front of my TV set or at my computer. :-(
MW: It’s not just Rogers stations that are on our network. Call everybody! Often!
- Ken in KingstonI have a man crush on Travis Snider.
Wonder when we’ll see the best hitter on the Jays once more?
MW: Today.
- RobMike,
Bad hockey reference aside from the other day. (UFA) What do you think the chances are of Bedard coming to Toronto? I remember hearing it quite a bit before last year that it was a dream of his all along!
Thanks,
MW: If the price is right, it’s certainly a possibility.
- BartMike,
- WDMDisappointing night for Purcey, and a shame we couldn’t hold onto the lead in this one. But, as part of 2009 philosophy I’m looking at the positives in each game, and once again, how about that Aaron Hill? What a phenomenal start to the season, and great to see him succeed after last year’s injury. He’s my favourite player on the team along with Doc, so I’m biased, but IMO he’s the best 2B we’ve had since Alomar. Can’t wait too see what he can do the rest of the way.
18,000 and change for the 8-3 team? Let me BOO all the Torontonians and GTA(ians). I was expecting atleast 35,000 for yesterday’s game. Baseball is the best sport on the planet. There’s a life outside of Toronto Maple Leafs too my dear Torontonians!
MW: The people you want to reach with this comment are not reading this.
- BeburgWith Purcey, he was in a bad spot. He’s been a bit shaky at times, he’s maybe not ready for his inheritted role yet, but all he heard from everyone was, “you gotta go deep, ‘cuz Tallet follows you and is on a pitch count”. Gotta be tough when you’re not at your peak then everyone tells you that you gotta peak all of a sudden. It will keep us grounded by reminding us our pitching isn’t quite playoff calibre.
For Cito, not everyone likes his methods. Not everyone likes Pinella or Larussa either. They all have their ways. I just wish those that are true Jays fans would get off Cito’s back for a little longer. At least it seems he has a plan. If it fails, then skewer him. For anyone to claim he’s making long term mistakes right now is foolish. I respect your comments on Cito in this post. And I agree. For example, Snider is 21, is it a bad idea to protect him at the beginning of 162 games?
The only thing I don’t agree with Cito on right now is Rios batting 3rd. Clearly he isn’t going to get out of his funk where he is hitting. But again, it’s Cito’s team and if patience works with Rios, then Cito’s plan is the right one. And it’s a whole lot easier to have patience when we’re winning.
What a fun start. This team feels like it did 15 years ago. You don’t feel like they’re every really out of a game. I hope it lasts, at least for a couple more weeks.
- Ian JPeace. ij.
Mike…Do you find it a tad strange (worrisome may be too strong of a description) that Brandon League doesn’t strike out more batters than he does? I know Doc, and most pitchers, would rather get a guy out on a weak grounder on the first pitch and preserve the pitch count. But with a guy like League, who’s stuff has been called electric, he seems to putter along getting himself in trouble. And if he would get the batters out on the aforementioned first pitch weak grounders, I’m probably asking you some other question, Mike, and not concerning you or me with his lack of strikeouts.
MW: League is a sinkerballer with electric stuff, and he should get more groundballs than strikeouts. He just hasn’t put the whole package together yet.
- chris m.Hey Mike,
Alex Rios is off to a pretty slow start right now and I was curious to what you would do to attempt to get him back on track? Maybe sit him for a game, move O-Bay up to #3 and move Rios down, or just hope he bounces back sooner rather than later?
For anyone interested, here’s the ‘Superstars’ event link that Kelly Gruber took part in back in 1991.
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Dugout/8973/comp/comp90.html
MW: For now, I’d keep running Rios out there.
- LeeHey Mike,
What happened to Matt Clement? (I mean that in the way of: where is he presently, not, why isn’t he good anymore?)
Last I heard, I thought he’d accepted his assignment to Vegas…
MW: He retired.
- peteScene: A few years ago, Cito Gaston interviewing for White Sox managerial position. Kenny Williams: “Hello Cito, thanks for coming in. I see you’re wearing two rings – nice. Listen, I’ve got a bit of a quiz for ya, to help us find out what kind of in-game decisions we can expect from you.” Cito: You did get the letter of reference from Gillick, didn’t you?” Williams: Okay, It’s the bottom of ninth inning, you’re down by three. You’ve got a submarining righty on the mound, with a platoon righthanded batter leading off. Whatya do?” Cito: “Nothing.” Williams: “Okay, let’s say you’ve got a veteran left-handed hitter on the bench with a nice on-base percentage against right-handers.” Cito looks at his World Series rings, says nothing. Williams: “And you’ve got a blue-chip young slugger on the bench ready to go too. What’s the move Cito?” Cito: “Stick with my right-handed bat, you know, show him I have faith in him.” Williams: “So, you’re not into the whole ‘Putting-players-in-the-situations-they-have-the-best-chance-to-succeed-in thing’?” Cito: “No.” Williams: “Okay then. We’ll be in touch, Cito.” Cito leaves office. Williams: “Sarah, send in that wacky Ozzie Guillen.”
MW: I’m pretty sure that’s not the way it went down.
- Evan WhiteMike, didn’t Purcey have the issue of focus last year. Something where he gets distracted easily. Cito did not sound too impressed in the snipet I heard this morning.
Just have to skeake this one off and go out for the next 2.
Rios is having a slow start to the year, much like Wells has had in years past. Just have to work through it, although maybe switching him and Rolen in the order wouldn’t be such a bad idea.
What’s the word on Accardo? League seems to be struggling thus far. It’s still early. I’m a little surprised with the pitching situation for today’s game that Cito didn’t leave Purcey out longer just to conserve the bullpen inning. Maybe later on in the year.
MW: It was a tie game, no need to leave Purcey in their to dig a bigger hole. Accardo is doing fine in Vegas as the closer.
- Aaron KerG’mornin’ Mike
I think that even with this young rotation, the strength of the Jays’ pen is going to give them a chance to win more games than they lose when they score 5 or more. I have two quick questions for you. The other night Jamie and Pat were talking on the telecast about Kelly Gruber and him scraping his chin during the World Series. I remember Stottlemyre jellyfishing into third and landing on his chin, but don’t recall anything happening to Gruber, can you help me (or Pat Tabler)? I also heard them mention that Dustin McGowan is likely on the shelf till July, but haven’t heard or read anything as to why? What’s happening there? Sit back this afternoon and tomorrow and watch the two lefties pile up a couple W’s and another series win
MW: The Jays had better win more games than they lose when they score five or more runs, I just don’t think they’ll win as many (on a percentage basis) as they did last year. I remember Gruber almost knocking himself out with a headfirst slide at the plate, landing chin first and cutting himself. McGowan has a shoulder injury and had a setback with soreness in spring training.
- CurtisMW,
Don’t fret about the booing, it’s a venerable baseball tradition (Yankees, Boston, Philadelphia) and we complain so much about how docile Toronto crowds are that I, for one, am glad to see a little life at the ol’ ballpark. Mind you it is tough to take blowing a 4 run lead. It seems to be a very hard lesson to teach young pitchers not to try to finesse
their pitches too much, especially when it is obvious that their stuff is off. Our defense is good. I wish our young pitchers trusted it more.
George
- George“Strong Up the Middle”
The other day a fan called you and (relentlessly) cited Sparky Anderson as somebody who thought a key to championships is to be strong defensively at CF, SS, 2B and C.
You cited the 92-93 Jays as an example of a team that wasn’t strong up the middle but still won championships. Its probably worth noting that the 92- 93 Jays had players with significantly more career gold gloves at said postions than did the 84 championship Tigers.
Lee, Borders and Lemon never won a GG. Alomar won 10, White won 7 and Fernandez won 4. Conversely, Trammell won 4 GGs, Whitaker 3 and Parrish 3.
Thus, in 92 the Jays sported 4 starters up the middle who won a collective 17 GGs in their careers, and in 93 their 4 starters won 21 GGs over their careers. The 84 Tigers’ middle fielders meanwhile can only boast 10 career GGs.
In conclusion, it is likely misleading to cite the championship Jays teams as proof the old addage about defence up the middle holds no validity. Similarly, its probably not accurate to suggest the championship Tigers were stronger up the middle than the championship Jays.
MW: It’s equally inaccurate to cite the number of Gold Gloves won as a measure of defensive excellence.
- ProkopecWhen there are injuries there are oppurtunities. Reed Johnson may not have a mlb career if not for Vernon Wells getting hurt in 2003 and Reed coming in and tearing it up. He was 27 and at the age where you begin to get labeled. Be careful David Purcey, you are at the age as well. While it is unlikely, I hope that Brian Tallet can grab hold of this oppurtunity and make something out of this. We need all the starters we can get and maybe he can be more of a stop gap plan. It appeared that Cito’s patience was running out yesterday when he pulled out Purcey and took the ball. He voiced his displeasure in pitchers giving away outs with walks. As a viewer I was losing my patience as well and Brian Tallet does walk 4 for every 9 innings so i hope he is sharp. These light hitting A’s are not the 1927 Yankees so I hope that Tallet puts the freakin ball over the plate and allows the best defensive team on the planet to do its job.
- DomenickMLB is one of most interestingly unfair leagues i hav ever seen.
this doesnt mean i dont like it baseball, just awed by the way the leauge is run.
What kind of league, where the top seed comes to make the playoffs out of every division, has one division with 4 teams and one with 6?
What kind of league, has about half the teams playing different rules than the other half?
Please explain why MLB, cant hav 3 divisions of 6 or 4.
In the AL West, you hav 1/4 chance of making it into the playoffs, and the NL Central 1/6.
There should be 3 divisions of 6, there fore 18×2 = 36 teams in MLB.
Or make it like the NFL, with 4 divisions of 4, while top team in each advances to post season. 4x4x2= 32 teams.
the DH is in the AL and the pitcher bats in the NL.
That’s really a stupid rule.
In order to compare stats, one must face the same tasks as the other. For example,who knows how many complete games Roy Halladay would have completed if the manager needed to pinch hit in a tight situation?
So the stat ‘complete games’ in the NL are ridiculously low, because in close games, the manager must take the pitcher out to put a bat in.
MW: I can’t explain why things are the way they are, but I don’t think things are right the way they are, either. But there are 30 teams, not 32 or 36.
- TheSunkenZealotWhat fun. I thoroughly miss “Wednesdays with J.P.” because I found him to be well-spoken and enjoyed the show pretty much every week.
However if all of the guest speakers you bring in are as candid and entertaining as Mr. Gruber, I will quickly forget the loss of the aforementioned show. (Heh – worked “aforementioned” into my comment!)
I found some of his comments fascinating, and a few potentially controversial. It’s funny, it was only (!) a decade or so ago when Cito lost his managerial job, but I can’t remember anything regarding any “racial” concerns having anything to do with his firing. Mike, do you recall, is there anything to this comment?
And much to my disappointment, nobody on the show brought up Kelly doing the “tomahawk chop” as he scored yet another run for the Jays during the ’92 World Series which might be my personal favorite memory.
MW: The racial thing that Gruber mentioned had to do, I’m guessing, with some comments Cito made towards the end of his first stint as manager. He suggested that some of the negative media coverage of him as a manager was racist in nature. He named three reporters, including our own Bob McCown.
- James (from the 'Shwa)What’s Cito and Co. going to do about Rios? How can he continue to be allowed to hit third?
MW: We’re not even two weeks into the season.
- NixonMike….For the gentleman in comment # 31, Gruber scraping his chin was in the ’92 WS and it was at home plate while scoring a run. And it was at Skydome, so it was Game 3,4 or 5..Hope the info. was handy.
- chris m.MW: It’s equally inaccurate to cite the number of Gold Gloves won as a measure of defensive excellence.
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A “straw man” argument.
The conclusion that you understated the defensive strength of the 92-93 Jays up the middle, does not require one to equate gold gloves with defensive excellence.
I just write this in case anybody was mislead or misinformed by your off the cuff statements.
MW: Interesting. You talked about how many gold gloves people won in order to state that the Jays’ defense up the middle was better than I’d suggested, did you not? Gold gloves are not a measure of defensive excellence – they’re a measure of defensive reputation, and often have more to do with offense than defense. There’s no denying how good defensively Roberto Alomar and Devon White were, they were both among the best ever at their respective positions. But Pat Borders and Manny Lee just weren’t that good.
- ProkopecComment 35…..
MLB committee should do something about these 2 issues….I am sure it has been brought up over time…..Surely bud selig knows about this….
- TheSunkenZealoti mean, cmon, what kind of league plays with these peculiar rules and seedings?
But I don’t understand you to be suggesting that Gold Glovers never deserve their awards.
Please list the years Alomar, Fernandez and White didn’t deserve to win gold gloves but did?
I anticipate the sound of crickets.
MW: I’m sure there are years that a guy might have had a better defensive season, but the three of them were easily among the best in the business, so you’re not going to get an argument from me on that. But I don’t see how you think that proves your point. My point is that listing the number of Gold Gloves a player has won, or the number of Gold Glovers that there are on a team, doesn’t really tell me anything. Gold Glovers often don’t deserve their awards.
- ProkopecWhy is everyone hitting on JP?
I mean even I think he deserves to be fired, but if he was gonna be fired itd be during the late part of last season or the off season, but CERTAINLY not during the beginning of a season, especially in april.
So all you JP haters, please join me in a ‘fire JP’ talk LATER in the season, when the jays are 30-50, so please stop annoying mike, because im sure he’s really tired of saying his opinion over and over and over again.
Talk about something new. :)
And Mike, i will talk to you about why JP should be fired, at a time when he should be.
- TheSunkenZealotDon’t forget! :D
Also, Mike I am certain you told many callers late last year “dont get too excited, Travis may not see much playing next year, he is only 21″ Now you want him to start every day..why the shift??
We all want him to be an every day player but this is no different than how we brought Wells in, Lind in etc.
MW: Sorry, you can’t be rude and insulting in one post and then expect me to answer your next one. Also, that’s not what I said.
- Mateo“You can just call me Rickey.”
Mark Scutaro
MW: Mark Scutaro?
- Kenhello mike
have to agree with chubby a few posts back about Rios….yes, he did hit 24 HR before but based on many at bats last year and just a few this year it doesn’t seem like thats his comfort zone…..he does seem more like a 15, 80 guy to me….and as far as your defensive assessment, one of the best arms in the business no doubt, but too many mistakes made (mental and physical) in the outfield over the last few years for him to be sitting at the top of the defensive heap. And I know I am piling on, but a ridiculous stance, no plate discipline and plays with his head in the clouds. All the best!
MW: You really are piling on. It’s amazing what a bad two weeks will do for a guy.
- samWhen did Marco Scutaro become Ricky Henderson. When Vernon Wells said he wasn`t a prototypical number 4 hitter, he was right. A cleanup hitter would have hit the ball in the air and ended the game in the 9th. I wonder if he has lost the game for them tomorrow by having to make the bullpen work in extra innings.
MW: Let’s remember that pitchers have a job to do, too. Yes, Wells failed there, but Casilla got him to hit that ground ball. If it were so easy, you’d see a lot more runners score from third with less than two out. For the Jays’ opposition this year, only just over 50% of runners at third with less than two out have scored with less than two out.
- DomenickMW: My point is that listing the number of Gold Gloves a player has won, or the number of Gold Glovers that there are on a team, doesn’t really tell me anything. Gold Glovers often don’t deserve their awards.
_________________
Mike, the Gold Glove thing might be your new point, but your original point was the 92/93 Jays were an exception to the rule that championship teams are strong up the middle.
That point, is patently absurd.
One way to embrace the absurdity of that point, is to look at the Gold Gloves won by the players who played up the middle for the Jays.
Game, set, match.
MW: Not true. My point was, and still is, that while the Jays had two VERY strong up-the-middle defenders in Alomar and White, they had a below-average catcher in Pat Borders and a shortstop in Manny Lee who was nothing special defensively and terrible offensively. To say that you need to be great at the four up-the-middle positions to be a winning team is a load, and that was my point.
Surely you have better things to do with your time than to try to prove me wrong on things about which I’m not wrong.
- ProkopecI keep on hearing how Roy Halladay is this great pitcher and all, but he has never led the Blue Jays to the postseason.
MW: You’re correct. I think if there’s anyone who should bear the brunt of the blame for the Jays’ inability to make the playoffs since 1993, it’s Roy Halladay.
- julianTo me he’s not a great pitcher unless Roy Halladay leads his team to the postseason like Brandon Webb, Johan Santana and some of the other great pitchers that have led their team to the postseason.
- julian“I have a question for Ken – who would you like to see as the GM of the ball club? I’m sure they’d be perfect in every way and I am curious where you find those types.
By the way who cares about Jason Werth – what’s done is done. At his best he’s only ever driven in 67 runs yet you make him out to be the second coming of Hammerin’ Hank. Oh and the last time I checked Jason Frasor is a pretty important guy in the bullpen.
Get over it son.”
Hey Dad, how the heck are you ??
Please don’t use RBI’s to evaluate a player. Use OPS and WARP.
And didn’t really make him out to be anything. I was just correcting MW’s mistaken assertion that he bad three seasons after leaving Toronto.
Andrew Friedman would have been a hell of a GM for Toronto, but Tampa Bay has already scooped him up. It’s also too bad that JP didn’t accept Boston’s offer. Them maybe we could have landed Theo Epstein. And Gillick still has a pretty good idea of how to build a team.
There’s guys out there who know their stuff. Maybe our new president or Beeston himself will land one.
MW: Please nitpick Friedman and Epstein as much as you do Ricciardi once they get to their 8th years. And no, my assertion that Werth didn’t get good until three years after the Jays traded him was not incorrect. He was a fine part-time player against lefties for two years after leaving Toronto (vs RHP – .239/.320/.421 in ’04, .233/.337/.389 in ’05), missed the entire next season, then became a fine part-time player both ways. He’s not one whose departure should be lamented.
- KenMay I remind you that coming into Saturday’s contest, the Jays sat 5th in the American League in TEAM ERA.
Combine that with a first place offense, and five runs a night is going to get it done most of the time, considering the ERA is 4.37 (I know, not counting unearned runs, but still)
And I’m sure it’s lower now as only one earned run was counted against the Jays in 12 IP today.
MW: That’s if you assume they’re going to stay in the top 5 in ERA all year.
- Danmike
i love the blog, and i agree with a lot of things, and your points are realistic, but one thing i notice you dont do very often, and that is giving credit to the opposition. When the Jays hammer a pitcher, that pitcher could be pitching really badly, and when the jays get 2 hits in 11 innings, maybe its because the opposing starters/bullpen is REALLY good.
Just a thought.
I have loved the blog, I’m loving it now, and I always will.
MW: I’m not here to talk about the opposition.
- TheSunkenZealotNote to Wilner:
Tony Fernandez was the starting SS for the Jays in 93.
MW: Well aware, thank you. Man, your life must be empty.
- ProkopecMW: Well aware, thank you. Man, your life must be empty.
=================
I accept your concession. Thank you.
- ProkopecBlue Jays fan disgust me. Team is 9-4 and all you guys can come up with is Halladay isn’t great because he didn’t compile 30 win seasons …because that’s what he’ll have to do to get into the playoffs. So how many great pitchers there are that have won 30 games? Right…just one Denny McLain back in ’68. Sometimes I think Toronto don’t deserve a team. It’s always Wells is terrible, Halladay sucks.
Yankees just got blown out, 14 runs scored in one inninng..they have serious problems with their pitching. if it weren’t for AJ they’d be under .500. And I’m on the Yankee blogs and I’m amazed how supportive the fans there are of Wang and this guy had 3 straight horrible starts and an era of 35+. As much as I hate the whole yankee thing and their spending ways, they’re more of a fan than Blue jays fans.
- badbloodHey Mike,
Your show is can’t miss material in this house.
Looking for some clarification from the Gruber show.
While discussing the infamous triple play that will forever haunt Toronto sports fans you waxed historical about the impact a different call could have had before gushing, “we were robbed!”
Just wondering if you were referring to ownership or membership?
; )
MW: Actually, I was referring to the entire city of Toronto, something of which I’m very much a part.
- JamieMike….I’m not sure but did Cleveland go for the 2 point convert against the Yanks….couldn’t resist that one, Mike!!
- chris m.Julian:
Regarding Halladay:
There is a stat called Adjusted ERA+ that essentially rates how much better you are than the average (a rating of 100 being average) the higher the number the better. Roy Halladay is 33rd all time. But that includes relievers and guys who pitched prior to the 1920s when the league was frankly not nearly as
good and the top players and pitchers dominated.
Here’s a list ranking all pitchers who began their career post 1925…with
1500+ IP
1 Pedro Martinez 199
2 Lefty Grove 154 HoF
3 Hoyt Wilhelm 146 HoF
4 Johan Santana 144
5 Roger Clemens 143
6 Roy Oswalt 139
7 Randy Johnson 137
8 Whitey Ford 133 HoF
9 Greg Maddux 132
10 Roy Halladay 131
Dave Stieb ranks 86th all time with a 122 rating tied with among others
Jimmy Key. Others Halladay ranks ahead of include:
Don Drysdale, Ron Guidry, Tom Glavine, Gaylord Perry,
Dennis Eckersley, Steve Rogers, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins, Phil Niekro,
So like Mike said – he’s clearly the problem in Toronto as there have been 9 pitchers better than him ERA wise in the last 74 years.
- Jim MaronMW – The results are really gravy, but to this point, the gravy is tasting pretty good. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, gravy.
Remember Mike, you are not a Jays’ fan.
“What kind of league, has about half the teams playing different rules than the other half?”
They are still two distinct and different leagues. Even with inter-league play and a common draft. That’s why the rules are different. People tend to forget that.
MW: They may have been two distinct and different leagues at one point, but the difference and distinctions are fading as the years go by, mostly because of inter-league play. But also because they play two different sets of rules in the series to determine the champion. And never mock gravy.
- KenMike, I don’t care if this comment gets posted on your blog or not, I just wanted to say that I personally think you do a damn fine job, and I simply can’t give you enough credit for your extreme patience with the huge crap loads of negative comments and back and forth pointless arguments that you put up with. I agree with you, some folks need to get a life beyond bluejays baseball, which obviously gives them no enjoyment in life.
MW: I’ll post that!
- B