12:35 AM Eastern
The results of the writers’ ballot for the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum (hey, don’t we count, too?) were announced today, and Rickey Henderson and Dante Bichette Jim Rice will be enshrined this summer.
Henderson was the greatest lead-off hitter of all time, baseball’s career leader in runs scored and stolen bases. He lapped the field with his 81 lead-off homers and posted a .401 on-base percentage. Nobody did it better, and the only thing that could have kept anyone from casting a vote for him was his arrogance, which is a stupid reason not to vote a player into the Hall of Fame. Besides, Rickey backed it up. He was one of a very few people who could really walk the walk after he’d talked the talk. Speaking of which, he “retired” as baseball’s all-time walks leader, but has since been passed by Barry Bonds.
Blue Jays fans likely remember the fact that Rickey almost single-handedly destroyed the Jays in the 1989 ALCS (Jose Canseco’s 500-level shot directly over my head notwithstanding). He hit .400/.609/1.000 in that five-game series, stealing eight bases in eight tries. Many Jays fans also remember Rickey as a major disappointment as a Jay after coming over at the 1993 trade deadline in a deal for Steve Karsay and Jose Herrera. Those people, of course, are very wrong.
It’s easy to look at the fact that Henderson hit .215 over those 44 regular season games and call him a failure. Or maybe to remember that he had to miss a few games because of frostbite. But all the other numbers tell the true tale of his value to that last Championship team north of the border. In those 44 games, Rickey scored 37 runs - that pro-rates to 136 over a full season, which would have been his second-highest career total (despite a .356 on-base, horrible for him - thank you WAMCO). He also stole 22 bases while being caught only twice, which over a full season translates to 81 successful steals in 88 attempts - that would have shattered the Jays’ all-time record (Dave Collins, 60, 1984).
He stunk it up but good in the ALCS against the White Sox (.120/.241/.200), and didn’t hit against the Phillies either (.227 average), but he walked five times and got hit once to give him a .393 obp. The last of those five walks came leading off the bottom of the 9th in Game 6, and we all know what happened three batters later.
It’s nice to have another ex-Blue Jay going into the Hall - Henderson joins Paul Molitor, Dave Winfield, Phil Niekro and coach Bobby Doerr. Next year, though, Jays fans will get a real treat when Roberto Alomar becomes the first Hall of Famer to go in wearing a Blue Jays cap on his plaque.
If you listened to The Bullpen with Mike Hogan and Mike Toth Monday morning (and if you didn’t, shame on you), you heard Hoagie ask me who would be on my ballot. My answer was Henderson, Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines and Mark McGwire.
Jim Rice wasn’t on that list, nor should he have been on at least eight of the ballots that were sent in by the writers (he squeaked in by seven votes). I’m not going to get too upset about his inclusion, because there are always arguments to be made about how deserving or not many enshrinees are and hey, at least it’s not the Hockey Hall of Fame, where the criteria for induction seems to be just playing in the NHL. The fact is, though, that over the past few years, the myth has arisen that Rice was the most feared hitter in the American League over a “decade of dominance” from 1975-1984. You’ll hear people say this as though it is the gospel truth, and it’s just not the case at all.
My formative years as a baseball fan were from about 1979-1985, and I don’t remember thinking that Rice was an incredibly scary guy. That’s one smell test that fails, but the truth is in the performance.
You know how you think Scott Rolen was a major disappointment offensively this season and is pretty much done as a good hitter (see how well I know my readers)? Scott Rolen’s 2008 was Jim Rice’s CAREER away from Fenway Park. Rolen hit .262/.349/.431 this year, for a .780 OPS. Rice hit .277/.330/.459 on the road for his career, for a .789 OPS.
He was a monster at home, and really not that good on the road. Certainly not Hall of Fame good, and to me, if you can’t hit away from your nice, cozy ballpark, you’re not an immortal.
You may have noticed Dante Bichette’s name scratched out at the top of this post. Anyone think of Bichette as a Hall of Famer? I didn’t think so. Dante, though, had strikingly similar home/road splits to Rice’s for his career, most of which was spent with the Colorado Rockies. His extremes were greater than Rice’s, but it’s still a reasonable example. Bichette had a .938 OPS at home and a .730 OPS on the road, compared to Rice’s .920 and .789. Another striking similarity is in tOPS+ (I know we’re getting stat-geeky here, but this is cool). It’s the stat that measures a player’s OPS relative to that of the rest of his team, with 100 being bang-on average.
Rice’s tOPS+ was 115 at home and 85 on the road. Bichette’s was 124 at home and 76 on the road. That means that Fenway Rice was 15% better than his teammates but Rice-A-Roadie was 15% worse than his teammates. Bichette was 24% better at home and 24% worse on the road. Freaky.
As for the rest of my ballot, it remains unbelievable to me that Bert Blyleven, who may have had baseball’s greatest curveball and who retired second or third (I can’t remember, and it’s late) on the all-time strikeout list, is being punished for not picking up 13 more wins over the course of his career. It seems to me that we’re a little more educated now as to how responsible a starting pitcher is for the wins and losses in his column, and yet so many of the writers dismiss Blyleven because he didn’t get to the magic 300-win plateau.
This is a guy with a career WHIP of 1.198, who threw 242 complete games including 60 shutouts. He’s being punished because the teams he pitched for weren’t good enough to get him about an extra half-win a season. Ridiculous.
There’s a simple argument for McGwire. The guy hit 583 home runs with a career OPS of .972 - 62% better than the average big-leaguer over the course of his career. Yes, he far more than likely had some illegal, artificial help to inflate those power numbers, but so did just about everybody else of his era. Regardless of how squeaky-clean somebody’s image is, you just never know who didn’t use steroids. It’s simply unfair to only punish those about whom there are strong suspicions, or even proof, because you know that you’ll be letting in a lot of people who broke those same rules.
If McGwire had appeared in front of the U.S. Congress in 2005 and said “Yes, I took steroids. It was a mistake and I regret it.” He would be in the Hall of Fame right now, and that’s just stupid. And please don’t push the revisionist history of “he was too one-dimensional, I wouldn’t have voted for him anyway” that some argue. Had McGwire not been suspected of using steroids, he would be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, no questions asked. Anyone who denies this is lying to themselves.
Lastly, Tim Raines, who has gotten incredible short shrift from the voters. 417 people left Raines off their ballots. What are these people thinking? While Henderson was the greatest lead-off hitter ever, Raines was right on his heels, hitting .294/.385/.425 (an OPS 10 points higher than Rickey’s) and stealing 808 bases at a success rate of 84.6% (higher than Rickey’s 80.8%). He didn’t get 3,000 hits, which Rickey did, but Henderson had 2,987 more plate appearances. I think Raines might have pounded out 400 more hits given that many extra opportunities. Or half that many. Hopefully Henderson’s election wakes up quite a few writers as to the merits of Raines’ candidacy. 22.6% in favour reflects very, very poorly on the baseball acumen of those who are supposed to have the greatest baseball acumen.
Before I go, I just wanted to give you an example of how I serve my public, you fine folks who take the time to listen to me on the radio and come and read this blog. Or actually, how I serve the people who may not do either thing. I read a comment on the Drunks site from someone who insisted that Alex Rios must have flied out to the warning track 100 times this past season and wanted to know if someone could tell him what the exact number was. Well, it just so happens that when I score a game, I have four different notations that I use for the distance of a flyout. “S” for shallow, “D” for deep, “WT” for warning track and “W” for a ball caught at the wall. Nothing for a routine fly, so maybe that’s five notations. I know, it’s a really complicated system. What can I say? I’m a really complicated guy.
Anyway, I checked, and Rios hit 15 fly balls this past season that were caught on the warning track or at the wall, 10 of them coming at home. Happy to help!
As always, rational, reasonable comments are welcome.
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Is it just me, or do you find it unusual, that Beeston has been hardly seen or heard from since he was hired?
And second question, do you think there are any moves that the Jays are going to make this off season that will help at all?
MW: 1 - It’s just you. I heard him on Prime Time, I’ve seen him quoted in the paper and on mlb.com. He’s always available if we need him. 2 - Yes.
- sandyHey Mike,
I highly recommend The Book: Playing the Percentages in Baseball, its a great sabermetrics books that analyzes basic baseball strategies such a lineups, IBB and sacrificing.
- CoreyWell, better an HoF ballot that’s too short on names than too long… I can’t argue with any of those names. (And good on you for not buying the hypocrisy on McGwire.)
But no love for Trammell? Here’s an MVP-calibre shortstop–yes, Jays fans, he was robbed–who got on base, hit the ball into the gaps, and played plus defense for 20 seasons. When healthy, he was every bit as good as Jeter with the bat–and considerably better with the glove.
MW: I’ll admit, I haven’t really looked at Trammell all that hard. If I actually had a vote, I would. I’m sure I could be swayed on him.
- MichaelIf Raines had played in Boston and Rice in Montreal, how radically different do you think the BBWA would have voted?
BTW - Wasn’t Raines fairly media friendly, and Rice was considered distant at best?
MW: Rice was a world-class jerk, and I never dealt with Raines. I do think that if Raines had played in a baseball centre when he was at his peak, he’d have gotten in by now.
- JabesMike, nice write-up re the HOF voting — however, I’m just listening to Hoagie sounding off on Andre Dawson, and why he should have been voted in.
I note you didn’t include him in your “ballot”, and I’m wondering why — what are your thoughts concerning “the Hawk”?
MW: Like I said to Hoagie yesterday, I think Dawson got out too much.
- NormHi Mike - I appreciate your astute comments and the hard work you put in for your adoring public. I agree with you about McGwire - the era a player played in, in this case the steroid era, must be considered. However the career stats of Jose Canseco closely resemble McGwire’s. I like Jose’s books and do think the whole MLB was complicit in the steroid era. You write that McGwire would have been voted in if he had admitted to using drugs. Canseco revealed the truth and he won’t be voted in anytime soon. Spitballers and others who bent the rules are in the Hall of Fame so what about Jose? I know it never will happen but I’m interested in your opinion.
MW: Canseco’s numbers really don’t resemble McGwire’s that closely. They’re only close in batting average, where Canseco wins .266 to .263, but McGwire has Jose by 41 points in OBP and 73 points in SLG, and McGwire hit 121 more homers than Canseco in almost 500 FEWER plate appearances. I think Canseco is a bubble guy whose behaviour knocked him out of the running with the voters.
- Daniel MartinHey Mike,
Nice to see you back on the blog. Been a while for me checking in as I was in NZ checking out a unique boat - an amphibious boat (SEALEGS)we have brought into Canada for the first time ever.
We’re at the Tornonto International Boat show if you feel like coming down to have a look - unbelievable product!
Ok - enough of the free advertising!
That was a great story as to getting into the stadium and great shot of you and one of your girls “locking up” on your way out! Just like the old saying “don’t forget to turn off the lights”.
You’ve had it rough healthwise - I know the gut virus thing only too well - same for me over New Years.
I’m with you 100% as to fans or so called fans complaining about the Jays and winning all the time. Sure winning is great - but we all have to keep in mind how fortunate we are to have MLB right at our back door - and the only MLB team in this country. Enjoy the product people enjoy the outing - a fantastic family outing.
Hey, no one thought Barajas would come through with the bat like he did in 08 - so maybe we will be in for a surprise with Chavez in 09. His numbers weren’t all that bad last season with his limited playing time.
Wonder how Kevin Mench will do in Japan this season?
Take care of yourself there Mike - all the best for 09 to you and yours - especially as to health.
Thanks
- Bob from BurlingtonMike
I heard an interesting analogy that I thought I would share.
Pretty much everyone speeds on the highway but the speeders are only those that get pulled over and too many tickets and you have your insurance rate increased.
Pretty much everyone used steroids but the steroid users are the ones who got caught.
There seems to be an uwritten law in the Hall voting….do somthing directly affecting the game and you don’t get in. So even though without the stain they deserve to be in they wont make it. Read Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Canseco and Rose etc
I thjink that makes a lot of sense.
MW: I was with you right up until your last sentence. McGwire, Bonds and Sosa, by the way, never got caught.
- Richard from ARI just heard that You will be a co-emcee for the annual Sports Charity Dinner!! Congratulations for the honour!!
kk
MW: That would be Mike Bullard, but thanks.
- karim kanjimichael,
interesting perspective on blyleven. very compelling points to his favour on him being an appropriate induction candidate. he’s got my vote now. wasn’t totally sure before.
and totally agree with all your other conjecture re: the others i can’t lie.
and is it ok to make this a dual baseball/beatles blog?
it’s ok with me if it is with you… and on that note,
just saw the “across the universe” film on the movie channel over the weekend.
thoroughly enjoyed it to be honest even with you.
seen that yet?
and let me know if you have ever read “up & down with the rolling stones” by tony sanchez (an unauthorized biography of the band) he was keith’s personal assistant/drug facilitator it seemed.
anyway, one of the best mccartney/beatle stories i’ve ever read is included in it.
i’ll share it with you another time if you haven’t read the book.
later….
MW: To be completely honest EVEN with me? Are you usually not? I haven’t read that book, I’m interested to hear the story, though.
- darrell bishop“Scott Rolen’s 2008 was Jim Rice’s CAREER away from Fenway Park. Rolen hit .262/.349/.431 this year, for a .780 OPS. Rice hit .277/.330/.459 on the road for his career, for a .789 OPS.”
Mike, your statement is misleading since it doesn’t consider offensive contexts. Rice’s road numbers were accumulated during a more offensively suppressed era than 2008.
That doesn’t make Rice a legit Hall of Famer, it just serves to illustrate why OPS+ is a better yardstick than OPS, since it adjusts for park and offensive context.
MW: If I could find Rice’s career OPS+ on the road, I’d have put it in. But given the numbers, it’s very difficult for me to imagine that it would have better than the 107 that Rolen put up this year.
- Chuck VHey Mike - just got the Jays calendar in the mail. Shaun Marcum isn’t in it which makes sense because he’s going to be on the shelf - but here’s an interesting one - Scott Downs is Mr. May 2009 and Bo Jr. Ryan didn’t make it in.
I ask myself- was this a slip or is Mr. Ryan gone before spring training?
MW: The marketing department doesn’t have that kind of access to the baseball ops department. It might just be that Downs is prettier.
- Andrew SDo you think Bert Blyleven will make it into the HOF next year?
Would Mark Hendrickson not have been a decent pickup for the Jays considering the O’s signed him for 1.5 million for 1 year.
Would you consider Paul Byrd or Tony Armas decent stop gaps to help our rotation short term?
Are you hearing any rumours/talks about possible free agents coming to Toronto?
I noticed yesterday on PTS Bobcat only had two guests instead of the regular three. How do the guests get invited onto the show, does Bob handle that or does someone from Rogers book Brunt, Toth etc.
MW: 1 - It will probably take two more years. 2 - No, I think the Jays will get far more from David Purcey than they would have from Hendrickson. 3 - Sure, if they’ll come cheap - and at least Armas will. 4 - Nope. 5 - The Monday roundtable totals three, the Friday roundtable four. Ryan Walsh is the producer, and he books the show. You should read his blog, “The Legend of Zombo”, which sits just below mine!
- TerryAny chance Jays can dump Wells’ contract for Micheal Young? Wells and Litsch for Young?
MW: Why would you do that?
- Joe N.Hey Mike,
I heard the guy was a world class jerk, but there has been no love for Albert Belle. He was a top player in the game for a decade and he’s not even on the ballot anymore. Belle has similar power totals to Rice with 2400 less AB and Belle didn’t have the luxury of playing half of his games in Fenway. I don’t think that either of them should be in the Hall of Fame, I’m just looking for consistency in the voting. Did Rice do something special that I don’t know about? In both of their primes which one would you rather have on your team?
MW: In both their primes there’s no question I’d rather have Albert Belle. Please don’t look for consistency in the voting, you’ll lose sleep, hair and likely your mind.
- SteveGood Day Mike:
Vernon Wells’ better-than-best-friend/more-than-brother Michael Young wants to be traded. Do you think he will be a Jay?
If an average ticket price is approximately $25.00 and average concessions, etc. spent is approximately $25.00, this will give an easily workable $50.00. An increase in Attendence of 200,000 fans a season would equal $10.Million in salary increase.
Attendance will be down after J.P.s Doom and Gloom attitude this off season. Shouldn’t any acquisitions be touted for the tickets to be sold because of it. How much more attendance generates how much more salary? Only you would have any idea.
MW: I don’t really have a real idea of how much more attendance equals how much more salary. The ancillary revenues are bigger than the gate revenues in MLB - hockey is the only gate-driven league out of the “major” sports. As I mentioned in the comments section of the last post, I don’t think the Jays should go after Michael Young.
- Richard SpackmanHey Mike,
Just like Jim Rice didn’t really strike fear as much as the myth would have some believe from 1975 to 1984 . . . I don’t think Bert Blyeleven really had that unbeatable aura, either.
Usually you KNOW when a guy is a Hall of Famer. With Rice and Blyleven, they were both sort of borderline. If you collected baseball cards and wanted to save the Hall of Famers, you kept Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, Rickey Henderson , , ,
Blyleven got put in the pile with Rice, Dale Murphy, Andre Dawson and Don Mattingly (Don Sutton was in that pile, too, but Sutton got to 300 and Blyleven didn’t. But did batters think they were facing a Hall of Famer when Don Sutton was pitching?)
MW: That’s why there should be tiers to the Hall of Fame.
- Ken PaganNo doubt McGwire is a Hall of Famer.
The double-standard is a shame. He retired the same year as Gwynn and Ripken. During their playing days ON THE FIELD, any pitcher facing Gwynn, Ripken and McGwire were sure they were pitching to a Hall of Fame hitter.
The double-standard? Gwynn and Ripken get judged ONLY by what they accomplished on the field. McGwire is judged ONLY by a bad day during an off-field performance in front of the cameras three years after he retired.
And making these judgments are the same BBWAA members who followed him around the country with their pom-poms in 1998, writing about his magical season that marked a generation. (Before a post-game interview on the night he hit No. 62, Joe Buck took a timeout to give McGwire a hug. How nice).
I just wish more people like you had the same opinion of McGwire.
MW: Me, too.
- Ken PaganHi Mike,
Andre Dawson was much more deserving than Jim Rice. Dawson was a far better ball player who hit for power, avg, stole bases before his knees started acting up, and won 8 gold gloves and had a cannon arm in the outfield. Rice was more one dimensional.
MW: Rice was definitely one-dimensional, and The Hawk most assuredly was not.
- Ianby the way. Mike, your daughter looks just like you.
- IanYou know Mike, when I was writing that comment on Rios’ long fly-outs, I thought, “only Wilner can answer this one.” Seriously. And what do you know, shizaaam!
Thanks a lot for that, although those 15 WT fly-outs really DID feel like 100 at the time.
Do you consider Rios’ close misses to be a sign of his insufficient HR power or a sign that with a little adjustment (maybe help from Cito and Gino) and some good luck Rios is on track for 30 HR power in his future?
Also, I think the Jays need a big RH bat to spell Lind/Snider/Overbay for ‘09. This could really help the Jays’ offensive production. Do you think the Cito/JP will rely on Bautista for this role, or should they sign someone like Richie Sexson? How much would that cost?
Thanks again for taking the time to answer such a remote question, that was actually posted elsewhere!
- Andy Mc
MW: You’re welcome. I don’t think Rios’ near-misses were a sign of anything other than balls he just missed. It happens, and for that to happen in 2.2% of one’s plate appearances in a season is no big deal. I think the Jays would do well to offer Spring Training invites to guys like Sexson and Jonny Gomes and let them compete with Bautista for that job.
- andrew - KWMike…I wish there were some old linescores from Joe DiMaggio’s time that used your method of tracking the distance of flyballs. I say that because I’ve read or heard often that the Yankee Clipper used to hit 25-30 balls to the warning track/wall in Yankee Stadium when it truly was Death Valley. (450ft. plus) Whether or not that gets stretched over the passage of time, it almost always leads to the discussion of “what would’ve happened if Dimaggio played at Fenway and Ted Williams played at Yankee Stadium,” a trade that was originally made by two drunk owners, only to be rescinded when Red Sox owner Tom Yawkey sobered up the next morning, circa 1947/48. Mike..any thoughts on what numbers those two greats would’ve put up if they played on the opposite sides?
MW: Nope
- chris m.Mike…I kept forgetting to ask you this question, only to be reminded by your talk of Bert Blyleven’s curveball. Under the following headings, Mike please state who you think was the best YOU saw:
(My choices are bracketed with the team he was on when at his peak,in my opinion):
a)Slider..(Dave Stieb-Toronto)
b)Fastball..(Nolan Ryan or Troy Percival both with the Angels)
c)Curve..(Tom Gordon-K.C or Dwight Gooden-Mets…I honestly forgot about Blyleven)
d)Change-up (Johan Santana-Twins/Mets and Keith Foulke-W. Sox)
e)Cutter..(Mariano Rivera-Yanks..No brainer here!)
MW: I’m with you on Stieb, Gordon and Rivera. Joel Zumaya has the fastball (103 at Rogers Centre!). Trevor Hoffman has the change and Roy Halladay’s cutter gets an honourable mention.
- chris m.For next year’s hall of fame ballot, Roberto Alomar, Edgar Martinez, Barry Lindin and Fred Mcgriff will be first timers. Which of these players do you think are hall worthy?
MW: You mean Barry Larkin. My immediate reaction is only Alomar.
- andrewHey Mike,
Who are the No.2,3,4,6 pitchers next year for the Jays. One must think Halladay is on his way out!
MW: Right now, it’s some combination of Jesse Litsch, Casey Janssen, David Purcey, Matt Clement and Brett Cecil/Scott Richmond/Brian Tallet, with Dustin McGowan back in May. Why must one think that Halladay is on his way out?
- Nick VTo be fair, not everyone who has left McGwire off their Hall of Fame ballot has done it in protest over his role in baseball’s steroid era.There is a faction that just doesn’t think McGwire’s career added up to enshrinement in Cooperstown, regardless of whether he had drug enhanced production or not.
MW: That is a load. Revisionist history by those who feel they must rationalize leaving McGwire off their ballot for reasons other than his performance in front of Congress.
- andrewhahahahha. these are hilarious rickey songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wLKvvDedFc
MW: They are, but I took the link out to the second one because of obscenity. Too bad, I really liked it.
- StevenHey Mike. I’m starting to hear rumors that with the economic shutdown the Jays might relocate with new ownership in 2011. I didn’t want to ask you this but now it’s starting to keep me up at night. How strong of a possibility could this be?
MW: I doubt it very much.
- Matt from BCHi Mike. Love the blog.
One question,
What do you think are the chances of the jays making a trade with the rangers for something including Michael Young? Probably for bulpen help (BJ?). We have it and they need it. I’m not saying I want this to happen, but I could somehow see it happening.
Thanks Mike
MW: I wouldn’t bet on that, either. Getting Michael Young would be the wrong move for the Jays.
- Christianhi mike;
- robert.sCaught you debating hogan/tother on the morning show and wholehartedly agree that macgwuire belongs in the hall, after all he hit 49 hrs as a rookie while small of stature and his innocence should not be debated, only his on field merits; hoagie likes dawson and maybe he belongs if rice got in, anyways good to see another ex jay in the hall, keep up the great work, go jays go.
Word got around that Mike Wilner had another post up!
I agree with you on Jim Rice, and obviously Henderson was a no-brainer. I was in the store yesterday and almost bought the 1992-1993 World Series DVD as I’ve never seen the 1993 world series one, and well, maybe it might be worth a look.
Anyways, on something totally unrelated, what do you think of Derek Lowe signing with Atlanta? I mean, this is a franchise that is seeing declining popularity- Atlanta hasn’t supported a team really well since the days of the Fulton County Stadium…Why would Lowe sign there?
MW: What does declining popularity have to do with Derek Lowe signing in Atlanta? They gave him sixty million dollars for four years! Anyway, the declining popularity thing isn’t true. The Braves attendance went up every year from 2003-2007, and dipped by a whopping 1,302 from 2007-2008.
- DanMike,
Any chance Ricky goes in to Cooperstown with a Jays hat? J/k. I heard that Michael Young was on the block becuase of a reluctance to move to third base. Any chance the Jays bring him back to play SS? He may fit the mold of leadoff too with 200 hits all but guarenteed. Thanks
MW: See above, and see the comments section of the last post.
- JustinMike,
I am not so sold on big Mac. Frank Thomas, Sosa, Thome, Manny, Bonds - it is difficult for me to say that, aside from the race to beat Marris in 1998 that big Mac really stuck out. Over HALF of the top 20 HR leaders achieved the feat in the last 10 years - I don’t think 500 homers means what it once did. What asides from HRs did Big Mac do?
You have to move away from stats to understand why McGwire should be voted in. You need to remember how amazing his rookie season was; you need to remember 1998 and how it rekindled baseball for so many. But, can you do that with the shadow of steroids, and the inflated numbers EVERYONE put up in those years hovering around?
I’m not sure I could. They say ‘it’s the hall of FAME, not the hall of NICE GUYS’ - and talk about how rotten Ty Cobb was. If Ty Cobb were around today, I wouldn’t vote for him - if any wife beater were up for election that would dissuade my vote. Heck, as you say - the only reason anyone could give to vote against Rickey was that Rickey was full of Rickey. If that is rationale for keeping out the only logical choice for leadoff on any all-time fantasy team - then surely concerns that I’ve mentioned are just as valid.
There are record books to mark records, but I like to think of the Hall of Fame as something else. My dad took me to the hall when I was a kid - Cooperstown is one of those sort-of too clean places like Disneyland where it is border-line creepy - but it is a kind of space where the goal is to preserve an idea of purity (even if that idea is sometimes flawed)- to me, at least, cheaters don’t belong there - even if it would decrease the weirdness. And steroids, against the rules or not, clearly are and were then a form of cheating.
MW: You have to hold everyone up to the standard up to which you’re holding McGwire, then, and you just can’t know who had the right P.R. strategy and who was a nice enough guy that no one ever suspected of using but who actually did. Frank Thomas had a torn biceps tendon, Ken Griffey, Jr. was plagued by hamstring injuries. If those guys had been jerks or had been hanging out with the wrong people, some folks may have said that those types of injuries are indicative of steroid use. I’m not saying that either Thomas or Griffey did anything, but we have no way of knowing anything about anyone. None of the greatest accused steroid cheats (Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Canseco, Clemens) ever failed a steroids test.
You bring up the Henderson personality thing as though I believed that it was a valid reason for someone leaving him off their ballot. I didn’t.
As for McGwire, what else did he do besides hit home runs? How about 9th all-time in slugging, 11th all-time in OPS, top 7 in MVP voting four times, 12 all-star appearances. There is no way any rational person can dispute that McGwire on the field was a Hall of Famer.
- AndrewMike,
Just a thought about the Rice induction, and I have no idea how it would pan out. How do his numbers compare to the other top players in the same “era”? I think that’s the standard for evaluation in any sport, not how they compare to players who came before or after.
MW: They’re not as good.
- TimHi Mike,
I have to disagree with you on McGuire. I don’t think the pro argument is as simple as comparing him to others of his era - and concluding he belongs because he performed better on steroids than others on steroids. A) Do you really suspect all other top performers of the era of using? 2) Who else is in so far who you suspect of using steroids?
The revisionist history that has been written by apologists is to say “we didn’t know, truly know, he was using at the time”. In fact, everyone know and MLB demonstrated very little faith in the product by faciliting these guys to cheat. Fans dropped off after the year of the chase; baseball is pulling in record numbers now that it is returning to pitching and defence with occasional flashes of power by a limited number of special hitters.
An interesting question - if, in spite of what we may individually think, McGuire doesn’t evern get in, what will that mean for Bonds, Clemens, etc, etc ad infinitum
Thanks for reading and sorry for rambling.
MW: I do really suspect all top players of that era of using something, yes. I don’t think Bonds or Clemens get in, either, which will be another travesty.
- GautamUnfortunately, a lot of the voting writers are just causal baseball fans who happen to get a ballot. Just look who is voting from Toronto. I don’t want to pick on her, but since I do not remember one baseball article from her all year — why does Rosie Dimanno have a vote and Mike Wilner, Keith Law, Rob Neyer do not? This has more to do with newspaper tenure and not baseball acumen. That is a shame because the votes are so important.
MW: Are you sure Rosie gets a vote?
- Jim BMike, I respectfully disagree with your thoughts regarding McGwire. I don’t feel the issue is weather their is physical proof he used steroids, but rather he is guilty in the court of public opinion. What I mean by that is MLB must make steroids look as bad as they can. Lots of people think they no McGwire used steroids, weather that is right or wrong it is what they believe. And if minor league players are under that school of thought and McGwire gets elected to the HOF they will think people will still respect you if you use steroids.
Basically what I mean by all that is if you think you know someone used steroids and they get elected to the HOF, isn’t that just sending the message steroids are okay.
Always look forward to your comments mike, Thanks.
MW: I don’t really think there’s any merit to your argument. Especially since MLB has nothing to do with who gets elected to the Hall of Fame. Sorry to pick on you, as well, but your spelling is atrocious.
- SkyeGreat seeing Ricky elected to Coopertown, in his own words on the MLB Network (not like I was able to see it), but I heard. Man, the guy was hilarious. Just having the presence of a base-stealer like Ricky Henderson makes any the team better. Even though he wasn’t on base as much as we hoped, everytime he got, I’m sure he was an irritation. You cannot discount his presence on any team, especially in his prime.
MW: Yes, having one of the greatest players of all-time makes any team better, without question.
- JeremyHey Mike,
According to mlb.com, Lyle Overbay is rated 37th among major-league first basemen in pre-season fantasy rankings.
The Blue Jays do not have anyone in the top 20 at any infield position. (Hill 24th among 2nd basemen, Scutaro 36th at shortstop, the great Scott Rolen 27th at third. Rod Barajas 29th among catchers.)
Top-rated Blue Jay is Alex Rios, 17th among outfielders.
I know it’s only fantasy baseball, but every other team in baseball has somebody in the top 15 at their position.
MW: Cool.
- Ken PaganI wonder if Ernie Whitt still has nightmares from that ‘89 series.
Dante Bichette…HA HA HA. Maybe not the Hall but what an arm.
Keep up the good work Mike! Can’t wait to hear more of you on the radio. You are a true baseball geek and really know your stuff.
MW: Thanks, I think.
- ArthurBBWAA Badge #710 Rosie DiManno, Toronto Star, Toronto.
Please educate me. Does a badge number get you a vote?
MW: No, badge number doesn’t get you a vote. You have to be an active member of the BBWAA for ten consecutive years to get a vote, I believe. I’m not sure about Rosie.
- Jim BLast year I had the opportunity to meet Gaylord Perry and I asked him about Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire chances in the HOF. Much to my surprise, he was very anti-Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire because they “cheated”. Given Gaylord’s use of an illegal pitch, you would think he was being funny, but he was very serious. I didn’t have the guts to point out that whenever someone tells me that cheaters (steriod users) should not be in the HOF, I use Gaylord as an example.
MW: So do I.
- Jim BI hear ricky Hendersen wants to start playing baseball again. How do you feel about the Jays signing him? Maybe pinch run a bit. Boost attendance? ;)
MW: I think he’s been out of it too long, but I’d have signed him three or four years ago!
- LoganHi Mike,
In all the media discussions I’ve ready regarding Rickey Henderson nobody seems to talk about what a great hitter he was (over 3,000 hits).
Mike, do you think Dave Parker is HOF material?
MW: Rickey was a great hitter, and he was great at so many other things. The things he’s famous for are stealing bases, taking walks, scoring runs, hitting lead-off homers and being really full of himself, so those are the things people are likelier to talk about. Parker? No.
- MarkWhat do you have against Michael Young?
MW: Nothing. I like the guy a lot. I just think that at his age and with the recent decline in both his offense and defense, he’s not worth $80 million over the next five years, especially for a team that has payroll issues.
- Joe N.ya sorry about that mike. the “honest even with you” thing was just a typo is all. 1 even too many looks like.
(should do a better proof read apparently)
anyway, that stones book i mentioned really is a great read. this guy sanchez probably wasn’t as close to the band as he lets on but was close enough it seems for some great stories and lots of them. epecially during their formative yrs. with brian jones in the band.
certainly spent a fair bit of a time riding shot gun with keith.
but he tells the story of the stones having a huge record release party in london for the Beggars Banquet album in 1968.
everyone’s there. huge crowd, the stones, and lots of other famous people & bands & musicians show up for it as well.
they’ve got a dj who’s playing the new stones album in it’s entirety with everyone partying. apparently the dance floor is packed you can picture i’m sure.
so mccartney shows up for this later on in the night. he had just left the recording studio earlier on and has with him the newly finished final mixed demo of 2 of the band’s most recent songs…
hey jude & revolution.
nobody’s heard these songs yet needless to say.
after side 1 of goats head soup finishes up there’s a bit of a break and at that point paul slips the dj the demo and asks him to try it out on london’s most discerning listeners.
so the dj flips it on & cranks it up. you can just imagine, just brings the roof down in the place.
according to sanchez the place is just going beserk over these 2 new beatles songs never heard before…
(i mean perhaps their 2 greatest songs ever written) right?) it’s not hard to imagine obviously.
anyway, mick, keith & the band are absolutely pissed and sanchez says they all just storm out of their own record release party in a huff.
totally upstaged yet again by the beatles….
love that story. especially for me cause hey jude is just my absolute fave song of all time. when that songs breaks out for the last 3-4 minutes with the band & background vocals doing the na na na’s & paul doing those wicked screams right to the end. that’s as good as it gets for me i gotta tell you.
but could you just picture that or what.
hope you enjoyed that anyway and sorry in advance if it carried on a bit.
later mike.
db.
MW: Nice story!
- darrell bishopHey Mike
Do you know if any of the Jays games will be on TSN2 in 2009? If so, it would make it a lot more difficult for many viewer to watch all of the games (myself included). Have you heard any rumors either way?
MW: I have heard nothing.
- SteveHi Mike,
Whenever I think of the Hall of Fame and what could have been, I think of David Andrew Stieb. I think that with more offensive support and a few more breaks interms of his near no hitters, he would have been another guy going in as a Jay. Think about it, he could have had at least 4-5 no hitters, he could have won 20 games at least 4-5 times with better run support. To me, he had as good a stuff of any pitcher throughout most of the 80s. I know there are other players in the “what if” category, but Stieb always stands out for me.
MW: Stieb was phenomenal in his day, no question, but his star didn’t shine bright enough long enough for him to make it, even had he had the extra run support.
- Ianwhat if Jim Traber hadn’t looped that single over mcGriff’s head? what if that Julio Franco grounder hadn’t hit the dirt cut out in Cleveland? What if Roberto Kelly hadn’t laced a clean double at the SkyDome in the 9th? What if the ChiSox hadn’t lead off the 9th with back to back homers at old Comisky?Yes indeed, Mr Stieb could have been up there with Nolan Ryan for no hitters…
MW: You know, I remember clearly the White Sox hitting back-to-back-to-back homers against the Jays in the bottom of the 9th, but I had forgotten that the first two were off Stieb and that he’d carried a no-hitter to that point. Don’t forget the one-hitter against the Yanks in his second start of 1989 (giving him three one-hitters in a span of four starts) - on a hit by Jamie Quirk with one out in the 5th that, if memory serves, could have been called an error. You’re right, Stieb could have had seven no-hitters.
- Ianone more comment on Stieb…the truly strange thing is his highest win total came in 1990 when he went 18-6 and that was a comeback year for him as he had a few down years after his loss in Game 7 of the 1985 ALCS to the Royals, a series which still bother sme as the 1985 team was my all time favourite Jays team. I was 14 yrs old and I cried that night. Dave never could get past that game and suffered for a few years afterwards.
MW: That game wasn’t why Stieb was (relatively) awful in 1986 and 1987.
- IanThanks for the reply Mike. Suspicion of everybody is not grounds to give a free pass to people who we are more certain used enhanced their power. Pedro should go in, Clemens should not. Griffey should go in, Bonds should not.
Do you think Molitor used performance enhancers?
MW: The fact that Pedro and Griffey aren’t suspected doesn’t mean they didn’t use performance enhancers. Everyone should go in. Molitor? I doubt it, but I have no idea.
- GautamI meant to ask you - who is in the HoF that you think used steriods?
MW: It would be irresponsible (and would open the radio station up to legal action) of me to say.
- GautamThis may be a little late, but I think it’s a great thing what you do with regards to Tom Cheek getting the FCF award…it doesn’t get said enough IMO.
Question though: Have you spoken with anyone connected who votes for this award (I’m assuming it’s past award winners, but I could be wrong) to find out why Mr. Cheek has not been given the award yet? If so, what’s been their reason? It seems as though Mr. Cheek wouldn’t even be included on the final 10 ballot if not for the interest you help generate each year….have you got that sense, or is it just me?
MW: Thanks. Even without my push, I’m sure Tom would be on the final ballot every year. Paul Beeston would see to that. Every voter I have talked to says that Tom would be a worthy winner of the award.
- ShawnMike.. All this Rickey H. talk has brought up an old memory..I’m getting really detailed now…We all remember Rickey Henderson with that quick snapping motion he made with his glove when catching the ball..Do you remember Devo leading off the bottom of the first in Game 6 of the 1992 ALCS at Skydome with a lazy flyball and Rickey booting it and basically setting the day up for the Jays to advance to their first WS?..If you do remember, was he showing off with that move on that play? I remember the error, but can’t recall if he was hotdoggin’….Kudos if you recall, and I’m trying on dunce caps for not recalling…Thanks
MW: You know, I don’t specifically remember that play. Which is weird, because I think I was at the game. White did reach on a two-base error to Rickey to lead off the first.
- chris m.Hey Mike. When are you gonna be eligable to be a hall of fame voter?
MW: Once I have 10 years in the BBWAA. Seeing as I don’t even have one day yet, I’d say it’s a long way off.
- Matt from BCHi, Mike:
One more question concerning the HOF, if I may:
With Jim Rice having been elected on his final opportunity, I got to wondering who else may have similarly “squeaked in”? I would think it can’t be very many, as I think it is much more common to go in early in the eligibility cycle, rather than late (discounting those who make it through the Veteran’s committee, of course).
Are you aware of others who made it on their last try? Is there a “listing” somewhere which would provide that info?
Thanks
MW: Red Ruffing and Ralph Kiner are the only others to have been elected in their final year of eligibility. There’s this wonderful tool called “google” that can help you find out stuff like that. ;-)
- NormJust to set the record straight, my comments on Atlanta were more so of the nature that I remember back in the playoffs earlier in the decade they couldn’t even sell out a playoff game.
MW: That doesn’t mean declining interest, that means the fans were so used to being in the first round of the playoffs that it wasn’t a big deal to them anymore. Doesn’t excuse it, though.
- DanHey Mike. Just wondering when you will have hit your 10 years of service covering baseball as sanctioned by BBWAA making you eligible to vote on the official ballots for Cooperstown?
MW: As I said above, I still haven’t hit my one day of covering baseball as sanctioned by the BBWAA. I’m not a writer.
- Anthony Lhey mike.. just found something that’ll finally let us listen to jerry and alan while watching tv without the annoying delay..
http://www.delayplayradio.com
MW: Anything that encourages more people to tune in works for me!
- ArjHey Mike, Skye’s problem was not in spelling but form of the word; “weather” for whether and “their” for there. It’s a very common problem and can’t be hidden behind the “computer generation” excuse as poor writing or conversational skills can.
I see the word “looser” for loser all over the net.
It’s not exactly a pet peeve of mine but a very obvious and annoying thing to see over and over again, when reading. It’s obviously not even caught by spellcheck (cheque) but should be by grammar (grammer) check :-)
Say goodbye to Greg Zaun in TO Mike. A game but underskilled backstop moving to Baltimore.
MW: It was a foregone conclusion that Zaun would be gone. At least he stays in the division and I’ll be able to see him a lot.
- GaryMike are you attending the “State of the french fries” on Tuesday ?
We upgraded our seasons seats to get a little closer to the field, and just over the Jays dugout. Maybe this year when Aaron Hill tosses a ball to my 9-year old daughter, some grown jerk can’t jump in front of her and take the ball ! grrr.
By the way my relatives who are Tom Young’s neighbours let me in on the “Pat Schmoody back at Toronto studio” gag.
Enjoy the waning weeks of your off season.
- Ian CMike…Speaking earlier about Game 6 of the A’s/Jays 1992 ALCS, also reminded me of what a great BIG GAME pitcher Juan Guzman was:
-many big Sept./Oct. wins in 1991, his first year including the only win over the Twins in the playoffs,
when Tom Candiotti imploded.
-clinching game in 1992 for the division.
-the above mentioned ALCS vs. the A’s
-impressive again in ‘93 playoffs
Mike…Do you think Guzman gets lost in the wash when great Jay starters(Key, Stieb,Halladay)are talked about?
MW: No, I don’t. I just think that his peak was too short to be put up at the top of the list.
- chris m.Why doesn’t Fan590 delay the broadcasts of the games during the season a few seconds to sync up with the TV broadcast? I know I’m not the only person that would like to listen to the radio commentary during the game instead of the TV commentary. Does the station not enjoy having more listeners?
MW: No, ideally the station would have as few listeners as possible.
- PeteMike, if I had a vote, (and of course I don’t) it would be Henderson, Raines, Dawson Blylevin and Pete Rose. I don’t give a !@#$%^ if he bet on baseball or not, the all time hit leader should be in the Hall of Fame!! If your going to let in McGwire and Bonds (presumably) you have to let in Rose. Sure he’s a jerk, but last time I checked so was Ty Cobb and he’s in the Hall. Baseball needs to get over itself and celebrate the “game” not chastize “personalities” There are people in the Hall that did much worse things than Rose, and it;s a shame he’s not in.
P.S. Although I don’t agree with much of what you have to say about the Jays..I respect the fact that you offer your opinions on this site whenever you can. I’m hoping to bring my wife and 2 year old down to the Rogers Centre this year and would like to shake your hand and say Hi. Thanks.
MW: Thanks. Rose would have been on my ballot, too, if he were eligible. His 15 years have expired, though.
- Blair MartinHow would you rate Canada’s chances going into the World Baseball Classic?
MW: Not very good. If Ryan Dempster, Erik Bedard, Rich Harden and Jeff Francis were healthy and available, I’d say they had a solid shot to make it out of the first round, but they’re not.
- andrewDo you think that Halladay, will one day get inducted into the hall of fame? I think he definately deserves to, however being a Jays fan, my opinion may be biased. Furthermore, Blyleven’s numbers look solid, however he wasn’t voted in so could it cost Halladay the hall of fame since be pitches north of the border?
MW: Halladay’s career is only half over. There’s still a long time left to determine whether he’s a Hall of Famer. He’s definitely on the right track, though. What does Halladay playing north of the border have to do with Blyleven?
- HarryI had a dream last night that I opened a newspaper and saw that Roy Halliday had been traded to the Royals. Poor fella. Is there any one on the Royals roster or in their system that interests you?
MW: For Roy Halladay? No. I do like Zack Grienke, Billy Butler and Alex Gordon, though. Ryan Shealy isn’t bad either. I might take all four of them for Halladay.
- ToddIf Mark Mcguire makes it into the hall of fame it would be a miracle..During his senate testimony he said he didn’t want to talk about the past..He was evasive when asked about steriods .If he was innocent and didn’t take anything, then why not say that?..He had the opportunity to clear his name and he declined…
He choose to take Androstenedione..It wasn’t banned by MLB at the time but it sure doesn’t help his cause…
He has the numbers to make the Hall but I think this entire era of homerun hitters will be hard pressed to make the first or any ballot..
Mcguire, Palmeiro (and those dreaded earplugs), Bonds, Sosa will need a miracle to be inducted..
Maybe in 10 years or so when things settle down..But as for the first 5 ballots or so..Not a chance..
- gumpPuffy Ricky
dont scare me m-dub
i thought this was a blog about Hinske
MW: Oooooooooooooooooook
- slobberfaceMike,
Do you think the Jays might trade someone like a Frasor (salary dump) in order to add free agent salary from the bargin basement bin? For example, Colon signed with the ChiSox for $1mil with up to an additional $2 mil in incentives. So could fans expect other free agents (Freddy Garcia?) sign for somthing similar with the Jays? I don’t understand JP’s stand that the jays are “done” with free agents and what they have now is what they’ll open spring training with. There seem to be so many ways for JP to be creative in order to “add” to SP depth but he seems content and to do nothing.
MW: They wouldn’t need to trade Frasor as a salary dump, they could have just non-tendered him. I’m surprised that they chose to spend a total of almost $4 million on Frasor and Jose Bautista when they could have gotten so much more in this market.
- Joachimmike, I dont know why you keep predicting the jays will be a good team. just take aj’s w/l record out and you are 68-66. and that’s assuming roy wins 20 games. if he just has a good season and wins 18, now you are 66-68. at best the jays are a .500 team unless somebody has a monster year to which there is no indication
MW: I don’t even know where to begin.
- roccogood to see that the jays signed League but he probably should have got more then 640,000
MW: Why?
- JamesHey Mike what do you think about Rolen leading off? If healthy (a big if), hes one of our better on-base guys and a good baserunner.
While he may not have wheels, anything over Scutaro leading off could be some sort of viable solution, and with Scott’s power sapped, a 5-6 slot for him may not make him as productive as he can be.
MW: I’d rather have Overbay and Rolen hitting 1-2.
- Coreysorry
ricky hinske is one of those inside jokes that goes on for so long, you forget its an inside joke.
Eric Hinske = Ricky from Trailor Park Boys
MW: Oh.
- slobberface$2.4 million thrown at Jose Freaking Bautista, but there’s no money to go after a middle-of-the-pack arm, or a decent bat? If Bautista was on the open market right now, teams would only be offering him a minor league contract.
There is just no execuse for giving Bautusta $2.4 million, when the Jays are working with a limited payroll. I just can’t simply believe it. He had a 69 OPS+ with Toronto and has a career slugging percentage of .398! This is a complete joke, it’s like JP is actually trying to get fired.
What is your view on this Mike?
MW: I was with you right up until “JP is actually trying to get fired”.
- SilvioImo Andre Dawson deserved to be voted in .. Baseball is offence and defence .. Dawson had 8 Gold Glove awards to go with strong hitting ..
With Gary Carter and Jim Rice in, Dawson imo deserve HOF too
MW: And you’re entitled to your o.
- Chas Calz