12:45 AM Eastern
I don’t know, it’s been over two hours since tonight’s game was suspended and all I can think about is poor Lyle Overbay having to stand out there at third base all night while the rest of his teammates are snug in their hotel beds. That’s a rule that should definitely be looked into by Major League Baseball - players on base when games are suspended should be allowed to leave the base during the suspension without risking being called out. I hope that’ll come up in the next C.B.A.
It’d all be moot if the Jays had just scored that run in an earlier inning. If they hadn’t completed the 5th inning tied, or had been able to complete the 6th untied, the game would have been official, and ended. Instead, they have to pick it up in the afternoon and hope that the bullpen can get 12 outs without giving up a run. Or maybe the Jays could actually add on to the 2-1 lead and give the relievers some breathing room.
Had you going there for a second, didn’t I?
Anyway, in honour of the suspended game (3-4 years ago it would have been declared a tie, stats would have counted, and the game would have had to have been replayed in its entirety), I offer you this suspended blog post. It’s late, I still have about 80 comments to get to from yesterday, and there’s a day game and a third coming up pretty quickly. At least Roy Halladay is starting the regularly-scheduled game, so maybe the bullpen won’t be needed much in that one.
Two audio files for your listening pleasure tonight! First, here’s the Rain Delay Programme/Suspension Show:
Second, Wednesdays with J.P. Among the highlights - Ricciardi was NEVER offered Ryan Howard for Ted Lilly, nor was he ever offered David Wright for Jose Cruz, Jr. (I hadn’t heard that one). He doesn’t expect to trade A.J. Burnett, given the offers he’s received for him so far, nor does he think he’s taking much of a risk with A.J. continuing to be healthy (of course not - he’s pitching for a new contract!). Burnett hasn’t given the Jays an indication about whether he’ll opt out or not. From the farm, J.P. says Ricky Romero is starting to “settle in and show some good signs”, and thinks that he may have been trying too hard to live up to the pressure of being a high pick. As well, Ricciardi said the Jays did try to sign Richie Sexson, but he wanted to go to the Yankees.
Two other big things: 1 - Ricciardi said that he’ll go to ownership after THIS season to talk about freeing up money to extend Roy Halladay, and this with two years left on Halladay’s deal, and B - When J.P. was asked about possibly trading Scott Downs, he talked about teams being interested in Downs for the same reason the Jays are, and not wanting to tear things apart, but when he was asked about trading B.J. Ryan, he said that he’s “not ruling anything out”.
Here’s the whole show for your listening pleasure:
Reasonable, rational comments are always welcome - I’m going to go answer some old ones right now!
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Oh so JP says he wasn’t offered Howard for Lilly and we’re all suppose to believe him? What would you expect him to say?
This is the same guy that said “it’s not lies if we know the truth.” Even you have to admit Mike, he’s not the most honest person in the world.
MW: He’s more honest than most people in sports, I think.
- AndyJ.P. Riccardi is a stand up guy. How many GM’s will face the fans and media weekly? Not many. Even Downs, aka Snapes, only talks to the media after a loss. However Gammons is a superb baseball journalist and on June 26, 05 he does indeed say that JP turned down Howard for Lilly. Who can you trust? I believe J.P. and even if he turned down the deal hindsight is always 20/20. J.P. looks even better with Cito in control as far as the line up is concerned. Cito is no money ball middle manager - he is in charge!
MW: Snapes?
- DanielSo he never had the chance to get Wright or Howard? Hmmmm. Oh well, at least he passed on the Vernon Wells for Tike Redmon trade last year. I tell ya, this stuff is mind bottling sometimes.
- Jim BranscomeHere’s something that will never happen but i think it might be sort of cool and creative.
Have doc finish the suspended game. he only has to go 4 innings. then have him come back (assuming there isnt a long time delay between) and pitch the first few innings of the second game. if he can get the jays through 5 that would set them up nicely to win both games. i know it will never happen, but it would be cool out of the box thinking. (although bill mahr says that thinking outside of the box is for smart people..dumbies should stay in the box)
MW: Not the best idea. Maybe if the game was suspended after seven, but not with 12 outs to get. You can’t count on Halladay to throw a complete game every time out, so why have him have to do that in order to go five in the regular game?
- sammy jalalzaiMike,
What do you think should be the Jays’ approach to player acquisition this off-season?
I think Teixeira is an interesting choice, but I don’t really see it happening. First, the Jays will likely be outbid by some other team (he’s going to command a huge contract). Second, signing him would require a long-term deal, which doesn’t make a lot of sense, especially when two of the Jays’ best prospects (Travis Snider and David Cooper) are great-hit, no-field 1B/DH-types on the fast track to the big leagues. Signing Teixeira would recreate the third-base logjam of a couple of years ago, only this time at 1B/DH.
I don’t have the answer, but I wouldn’t mind seeing JP taking a different approach this off-season. I know the team has a couple of glaring needs (SS, 1B/DH, maybe a frontline starter after AJ hits the road), but I don’t see how throwing huge money at a big-time free agent or two is going to solve anything. For one thing, there really aren’t very many good free agents out there–which means that the bidding is going to get very expensive. It also makes me think of the adage about the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over again).
The Jays tried this approach a couple of years ago with Ryan and Burnett–which I think were good signings (AJ’s contract notwithstanding), but have they really helped the team move forward? And what if we’d landed Lilly and Meche as well–which was JP’s plan–for an extra $20M/year (for the next four or five years)? Or traded a few prospects for Miguel Tejada (who is currently hitting 276/314/418 for the prospectless Astros)?
I think it’s time to stop throwing money at the problem and start thinking long-term. For one thing, signing Type A free agents costs a team its high-level draft picks that, lately, have netted the Jays Arencibia, Jackson, Cooper, Cecil, and Snider. Focusing every off-season on getting “just one more” expensive bat, or premier starting pitcher, tends to encourage a kind of desperate, myopic thinking. Of which we’ve had a lot lately in Toronto. Wouldn’t it make more sense to say–hey, we may not get to the playoffs in ‘09 (although we think we have a chance), but we’re committed to being competitive in the long run by building from within.
Future contenders are going to be built around players like Evan Longoria, Dustin Pedroia, and Joba Chamberlain–young, cheap, and highly talented–not Mark Teixeira and Rafael Furcal (at or past their prime, and expensive as all-get-out).
MW: I don’t think many contenders will be built around Dustin Pedroia - the Red Sox are built around Manny Ramirez, Mike Lowell and J.D. Drew (David Ortiz when healthy), but Pedroia is a very nice complimentary piece. The thing with the Jays is that they’re likely to finish in the bottom half this season, which means they wouldn’t have to give up a first-rounder to sign a Type A free agent, and they’re likely to get one back for Burnett, unless they trade him. I don’t think that they’re going to be able to land Teixeira, either, but I’d love to see them try.
- GeoffMike,
I’ve got a question about AJ’s contract. If the Blue Jays trade him, does the team that acquires him get the same clause in the contract regarding the two draft picks? Will they receive the draft picks if AJ chooses to opt out and go to another team?
MW: The draft pick compensation has nothing to do with the contract.
- ErnieOk, so I know it’s a terrible plan, but this might be what will be happening for the bullpen based on patterns so far:
Even numbered years: Downs, Ryan
Odd-numbered years: Janssen, Accardo
Can the Jays survive like this for the next 1 or 2 years?
MW: Downs was fine last year, too. The bullpen hasn’t been an issue for them at all the last two years.
- ProvanSo Lyle Overbay has to stand on 3 rd base all night this is the most insane thing I have heard . Will he get some sleep I am quite intrested in this plays out . You need to interview him about this on the Blue Jays this week .
MW: I’m sure we’ll talk about it.
- Grant SteinerAlso, this is Lind’s 5th chance at the Majors, and so I’m glad that he’s finally making the best of it, but very few people get 5 chances at The Show.
MW: The first one was a September call-up, and he was great, but lots of players ride the shuttle up and down from the minors until they establish themselves.
- ProvanOn the rain-delay show you were reviewing Ricky Romero’s numbers for a caller, and you looked at his last, 4? 5?
Over his last seven, his line looks like this:
3-1, 2.83, 47.1 IP, 45 H, 14 BB, 28K, 1.25 WHIP
Not the K rate you want but otherwise, he certianly seems to be finding some kind of groove.
The same caller, I think, mentioned pitching relief at AAA beyond the guys who have been called up - I submit for your consideration the other Romero.
Davis Romero. His season ERA is 3.83 but it’s skewed by, I believe, two (or maybe three) really awful starts. I can’t find a complete game log but there was a game in May in which he gave up 7 runs in 3 IP (or maybe less) and on June 30 he gave up 5 runs in 4.2 IP
In his last 10 games, his ERA is 3.81 and that drops all the way to 3.26 without that June 30 start.
So in that respect, his ERA is deceptive as AJ Burnett’s is. He’s a slender guy, but he HAS to be in line ahead of scrubs like Kane Davis or whoever.
I like to think he’ll get a shot at a role in our pen next season.
MW: I think he will, too. Remember, he got a call-up in 2006 and then missed all last year because of the torn labrum. The shoulder surgery is the only reason I didn’t really consider him as a guy they could bring up to start for them this season - he has thrown six innings each of his last three times out, though.
- WillRainHey, how appropriate is it that a game which stopped without a winner was started by the ultimate .500 pitcher, eh?
;)
- WillRainThe fact is Mike, JP has a serious credibility problem with the Jays fans. Whether that is deserved or not, simply does not matter. Perception is reality, and we fans perceive him as being a good assistant gm somewhere else where he doesn’t have to worry about putting a team together that can compete. His only worry working for another team should be finding talent, and letting the gm, say Billy Beane decide if the player is a fit to play for the A’s.
Do I sound like JP should be working for another team? You bet, it is time. It is funny, Shapiro in Cleveland worked the media very hard when he was getting ready to trade Sabathia, so that they could help him build the market for him, and increase the return. JP doesn’t get that part of the game. From his 7 years of history that we have to work with (excuses aside) has no concept of what it takes to build a winning team, or build a farm system that can produce home grown talent for the Major League roster. It quite simply is time for him to leave.
You will get used to the next guy who takes over.
MW: Yes, no concept whatsoever. I still don’t understand the whole “perception is reality” thing. That only matters to your boss. And while fans, yes, ultimately are the ones who pay salaries, etc., etc., the fans’ perception as NOTHING to do with whether or not someone keeps his job.
- BobHi Mike,
That was a little tough to listen to (Wednesday with JP)
while JP was doing his wind sprints, walking the treadmill or taking his dog for a walk, running for the next plane…
Really, shouldn’t he at least sit in one place (like poor Lyle Overbay) while he’s on your show?
I know it’s probably better for JP to not show his cards, but didn’t you get the sense that he really is in a “stand pat” mode? Not a whiff from his comments that he’s even looking to make a deal to make the team better, rather, just waiting for someone else to call and propose (like the proverbial princess)something?
I’m sure many bloggers will be (if it’s possible) even more frustrated. Fortunately the deadline is less than a week away and we can all relax!
MW: I don’t know why anyone would expect J.P. to even hint at what cards he might be holding in a public forum like this. And chances are he was walking back from the ballpark to the hotel.
- BRick in OakvillePost 85 (ukJay)in yesterdays comments to your blog Mike, wondered about the origin of the phrase, “putting a little english” on that ball or pitch.
Your correct Mike, as to an odd spin on the ball (side or back).The term, actually originated and is used more in billiards than anything else. However, it is applied to most sports that employ a ball.
The origin of the term is British and originated when anyone, trying to put a “back spin” on a cue ball, communicated during the shot with a change to their body movement followed sometimes by a verbal expression.
A physical gesture used in place of an actual word, like, jumping up and down at a game, applauding, waving etc. is considered “body english” or “body language” and is communicating via your body movements - right!
When billiard players, for example, changed their poise or position during a shot in order to put a back spin on the ball - it was considered that “body english” was applied to the ball or shot. Hence the phrase - “he/she put a little english on that ball”
Simply put, if you want to shoot, throw or kick a ball so it will take an awkward flight or dance a little - you usually change your normal physical approach to that of a twist or turn. Then, if you follow through with a verbal “oomph or ah” you have now combined “body & verbal english” to the process and transferred it, or as they say, “added it” to the ball or a shot.
Most definatley not to be taken as an insult to your heritage there akJay!
Anyway, my two cents worth on the subject.
Thanks.
- BobWhy would he even talk publicly about “freeing up money” when it comes to a player’s contract? Doesn’t that hurt his bargaining position?
MW: When did he talk about freeing up money? With Ryan?
- Jim BMike,
I just read a Jamie Campbell post on sportsnet expressing the worry that Aaron Hill may not play again, ever - he references a JP quote, where he brings up Koskie. Have you heard anything along these lines?
MW: I haven’t. But no one knows when or if Hill will be able to come back, and players like Corey Koskie and Mike Matheny have had their careers ended by concussions. It’s scary, and you hope it’s not the case, but you never know.
- WojtekI am glad someone finally tried to ask JP about selling high on a player (Downs). You have to give up talent to get talent. Mike, what player do you think would be best to trade thinking that their market value would not be higher later (thanks^^).
MW: I think that even if Downs’ value is as high as it’s ever going to be, you’re still not going to get a king’s ransom for him. What Blue Jay is at the height of his trade value right now? Nobody.
- brent in KoreaWho replaced Litsch on the roster. Can that player play in the continuation of the suspended game, if he’s around, even though he was not on the roster last night?
MW: David Purcey, and yes, he could have.
- Shmuel YitzchokHere’s a crazy idea - why not have Halladay pitch the final 4 innings of the suspended game and depending how many pitches he threw pitch another 4-5 of the regular game?
MW: See above. Why would you do that?
- Shmuel YitzchokHi Mike
- Hopeful HomerI guess the radio got offended by your comments and snapped into it, because last night, when I turned it on it worked.
I am looking forward to the game(s) today and the JaysTalk.
Have a good day.
Overbay hitting 4th and Lind hitting 8th vs Orioles is hard to justify .
MW: And yet, Overbay drove in the game-winning run.
- Chas CalzMike
Follow up question on moving Lind to First. The idea would be for next year. Is the free agent market stronger for outfields than it is for 1st basemen; hence, perhaps move Lind to first and get an outfielder?
MW: Remember, there’s a trade market, too. And the Blue Jays already have a first baseman.
- DCMW: I’m sorry that it seems odd, but here’s where I stand on that. Major-league players have track records in the major leagues that one would think would indicate what they can do. Minor-league players have no such track records, and often very highly-touted “can’t miss” players often miss, and 20th-40th round draft picks of whom no one thought anything become very productive major-league players. You can rate a farm system all you like, but until players get to the majors and put together a bit of a C.V., no one has any idea how they’ll perform.
Mike you could say this about any prediction!!!! of coarse some can’t miss propects are going to miss!! thats what happens when you try to predict the future your going to be wrong sometimes. just like you with thinking the O’s would lose 100 games. or thinking the Jay’s will finish 10 games ahead of the A’s. Sometimes I think that you think scouts are watching minor leaguers play hockey and trying to project how well they will be able to hit a baseball, they’re not they’re watching baseball players play baseball!!!!
I can’t get my head around you saying that are only making educated guess’s on prospects, but Mike thats all your making when you make predictions.
and since you think the draft is such a crapshoot I’d like to point out to you that at this years all star game, of the 49 players in the game taken in the draft, 23 of them were first round picks that just under half Mike and when you consider Matt Holliday went in the seventh round but got first round money and Grady Sizemore went in the third round but also got first round money that brings the total to over half of the drafted players in the allstar game were first round picks!!!!!
how is that for a crap shoot Mike?
MW: That’s a pretty big crapshoot, if you ask me. Let’s see - one would think that an all-star game in 2008 would be populated mostly by players who were drafted between 1995 and 2004. In those 10 years, over 300 players were drafted in the first (and supplemental first) round. 23 of them, or less than 10%, were all-stars.
- AnothonyMike,
Ive read conflicting things regarding pick compensation if Burnett opts out. Do they get 2 sandwich picks, or the first round pick of the team that he signs with, and then a sandwich pick?
Also, regarding Weds with JP talk last night… It seems you picked up on the same thing I did (and probably many others) The way JP talked about Downs, and having him here for the next couple years — “quasi-closer”… seems like Bubba Jr is quite available.
One last thing - Litsch sent down?? Why not let him work out his problems up here? Like any knowledgeable ball fan knows, Litsch pitched over his head to start the season, and now its evening out. Hes a 5th starter, do the Jays really expect more from him? What can he possibly gain from a minor league stint at this point? The only possible reason I can see for this move is that Jesse was too comfortable in his role in the sense that nobody was pushing him to be better “or you will get sent down” type of deal. What do you think? And does this mean Purcey is going to get his “extended look”?
MW: If Burnett winds upbeing a Type A free agent, which I believe he will, then the team that signs him would give up its first-round pick (assuming it finished in the top half of MLB) and the Jays would get a sandwich pick. As for Litsch, I’m on the fence. It doesn’t trouble me terribly that he’s been sent down, and it wouldn’t have troubled me terribly if they’d kept him up. It does mean that Purcey will get his extended look, though.
- Andrew (Guelph)Mike,
In the argument of whether or not to trade AJ, isn’t it better to get a known entity now (i.e. trade him for a prospect) than the unknown of two first-rounders if he goes somewhere else? The draft is frequently a crap shoot (no matter who is drafting) but to have someone who has shown a couple of good years of pro baseball at least gives you that certainty.
Comments?
MW: I don’t disagree. But it depends on how good that known commodity is.
- bgCito never argues with the Umps. I’ve only seen him out there once during the Halladay foul ball incident v Rays. Look at Ozzie Guillen’s of the world, they even go out and argue check swings in the 3rd innings. Last night Mora was out at 1st, clearly out, but Cito didn’t come out to argue. There have been many occasions like that where Jays have been robbed and Cito just didn’t come out. I know Umps rarely overrule their decisions, but managers should show some fire, some passion. Look like Cito is already thinking about a contract for next year.
MW: Because he doesn’t come out to argue with umps? Didn’t everyone want John Gibbons fired because he was a “hothead”?
- Beburg aka The relief pitcherIf Ryan goes–and I wouldn’t be against that–then I guess Scott Downs will be the closer? We could probably get quite a bit for Ryan…
MW: I would think Downs would be the closer, then Accardo next year or maybe Janssen.
- reyesSo let’s assume play a thought game for a moment.
Assume there is a team out there that has underperformed for an extended number of seasons.
Further assume ownership has deemed that the General Managership should be changed. What is the advantage of leaving the current GM in place to end of season, as opposed to firing him immediately?
Would not the lack of a firing indicate that ownership still backs the GM and plans to continue his employment with the organization?
MW: Not necessarily, but one would think so.
- Paul BDid JP not say its ok to lie to the fans (or something to that extent). I jsut remember bobcat saying that he could not believe JP anymore for this reason…good point Andy. But does anyone honestly think that the phillies would have offered Ryan Howard for Ted Lilly? If so I think we can safely say that JP is at least the 2nd worst GM in baseball.
MW: Every GM in pro sports lies to the fans all the time.
- KDHi Mike,
Two years ago, the Jays had really good offense. As a result they ended up in second in the American League East Standings. The last year they had the best pitching and yet they ended up in third and this year the same and who knows where they’ll end up. Do you think maybe they should give up their pitching for hitting to get a better chance in getting into the playoffs.
MW: Why, because they finished second the year they had hitting but no pitching and third the year they had pitching but no hitting?
- MikeyHi Mike,
Know it’s cruel - but there’s those who might suggest that Big Lyle use those sodden hours to contemplate his sins (he can always take solace in that crucial stat for a firstbaseman - OBP). “Unlucky” J.P. might want to join him…
Prediction: If Kyle Lohse wins 20 games he will be convicted of witchcraft and suffer the gruesome consequences.
Lind being called up just after Cito was hired - do you believe that’s just co-incidence?
Also like the fact that the Zaunie era is mercifully over. But you must forgive suspicion when we are told the Jays have “very good catching prospects” (or words to that effect) - it’s all been heard before, with no tangible results.
Next year I hope we’re not hearing wistful yearnings that things would be just fine if only Overbay, Wells, and Rolen hit the way they did THREE years ago…
MW: I hope so, too. Do you think Kyle Lohse can float? Is he made of wood?
- KenG’day Mike,
Thought I’d get you off the hook and get it straight from the horse’s mouth, but alas no such luck!
JP would prefer other people judge what he’s done well + poor! So here we go again (talk about GROUNDHOG DAY)
I didn’t mean to turn this Q into a make work project for ya, so off the top of your noggin, name the 3 - 4 best moves JP has made (maybe since he’s had a decent budget to work with). Any sugestions from the peanut gallery?
Thanks.
MW: Peterson for Hillenbrand for Accardo is a big one. Jumping the queue to sign Burnett and Ryan - the two most sought-after free agent pitchers of that off-season - is another. Getting Roy Halladay to forgo free agency to sign a contract extension is huge. Picking Scott Downs off waivers was good, too. How’s that?
- Davehey mike,
somebody told me (a “buddy of JP”), Litch was sent back to the minors. is Gummo gone? or is this BS?
MW: He gone.
- diegoHi Mike,
Do you think Aaron Hill’s career might be at risk. For example Corie Koskie had a cuncussion and hasn’t played since 2006. How’s Aaron’s status? How long do you think it will take for him to heal?
MW: Yes, no one knows, no one knows.
- MikeyMike,
My co-workers are incredulous with regard to Lyle Overbay having to stay on third base until the game resumes today.
I’ve shown them what you had to say, and even played parts of JaysTalk for them, but no amount of proof from your blog will suffice.
I can’t seem to find the rule from the Official Rules section of the MLB website about this particular situation, and unfortunately, no news articles from Google News seem to make mention of Lyle’s unfortunate predicament.
For curiousity’s sake (both mine, and theirs), I was wondering which MLB rule requires Lyle to stay on third until the game resumes, or be called out.
Thanks, and keep up the great work!
MW: I believe it’s rule 31(c).08 section QQ.
- LeoANother good blog Mike. With jesse litsch being sent down now and david purcey being called up, is J.P. just showcasing John Parrish to see if anyone might trade a C or D level prospect or do the jays just plan on seeing what he can do?
MW: I think Parrish will get another couple of starts to see if there’s anything there, and if not Litsch comes right back up.
- AKMW:”I don’t know, it’s been over two hours since tonight’s game was suspended and all I can think about is poor Lyle Overbay having to stand out there at third base all night while the rest of his teammates are snug in their hotel beds”.
Friendly reminder: You might get couple of responses along the lines of “You know nothing about baseball” or ” check the rules”, mostly by the same people who only come here to see if you’ve made any typing errors and then attack you like you’ve killed somebody. Hope you got the pun.
MW: Actually, I’m stunned by the responses I’ve gotten to that so far!
- Beburg aka The relief pitcherHey Mike,
Long time no write. Newborn twins take up a lot of time.
Jesse sent down and Purcey called up? I was kind of surprised by this move. Although I have a feeling it won’t last long before Jesse is called back up. I have been with you all along Mike I thought he was a 5th starter and that his hot start couldn’t last. All in all even though he has been losing with the exception of some games he hasn’t been doing too badly and is about what I would expect from the 5th spot.
Here’s hoping that Purcey worked out those control jitters from his other trips up with the big club. 11 walks in 7+ Innings.. ouch.
- Johnny GMike
Man, you were sharp last night, love the comment on the doppler report with Ashby. It is lightning and thunder by the way, doesn’t sound right does, it? but as you know, lightning comes first, thunder is the displacement of air that result.
Question -
I don’t follow why Brian wolfe is the one that is sent to the minors as opposed to Frazor. To me, Wolfe is more effective than Frazor and as a pitcher, I like Wolfe more. He seems to be more consistent.
Mike, have you ever thought of putting together the ‘best of Mike’? You have to have some of the top 20 funniest calls or blogs you can list for our additional enjoyment.
Thanks
MW: Who has time to put together a “best of”? And I think Frasor is likely out of options, so it’d be harder to send him down. Thanks for the clarification - lightning comes first? Who knew?
- francisSince baseball hasn’t adopted any rules for replays and umpires are still human, which umpire has to stay out in the field with Overbay?
MW: I’m assuming it’d be either the third-base umpire or the low man, seniority-wise.
- RyanIs the regularly scheduled game today limited to 7 innings?
Rule 4.12a(8) If a game is suspended before it becomes a regulation game, and is continued prior to another regularly scheduled game, the regularly scheduled game will be limited to seven innings
MW: That’s only in the minor leagues. Every major-league game is scheduled for no less than 8 1/2 innings.
- Brian DallawayHey Mike,
Eddie at the Detroit Tigers Thoughts blog has come very close to reverse engineering the Elias Sports Bureau formula for ‘typing’ free agents. It will be interesting to see how Burnett stacks up against other starting pitchers over the past two years. Instinct tells me that he is on the lower half of the Type A free agents given how many starting pitchers there have been over the past couple of years. Here’s the article:
http://tigers-thoughts.blogspot.com/2008/07/almost-how-elias-sports-bureau-rankings.html
- MarcHi Mike,
First off, I will mention in all my call-ins and blogging I have never really ragged on JP other than to say that keeping Gibbons was a horrible mistake. I did my fair share of Gibbons bashing and I am glad he is gone. Cito in short time is working wonders with this team, by doing the things many fans (not you or JP sadly) wanted to see. Bunt early and often if necessary, steal bases if necessary, bench the players that are hurting the club, bring up Lind and develop him, give Rios his aggressive nature and confidence back. I am certain you and many others (gritting their teeth) will agree that obp, not bunting, station to station baseball was not working for this team. You say “I told you in June the hitting would come around.” Well, not if Gibby were still here. Cito has had a very positive effect on this teams ability to score. The players are even saying it, so that fact simply cannot be disputed. Even Halladay made a point of saying he liked the managerial change and havng Cito back at the helm.
I have always said I felt JP was doing a solid job in building a competitive team. I do believe he has personality issues and has said some of the dumbest things I have heard from a GM, but he is doing a solid job overall. Unfortunately there a lot of people doing “solid” jobs in this world and results are necessary and we are not getting them (well, we are since Cito came back). His connection to Gibbons and the fact that he could puppet Gibbons was hurting the club. Cito is running the club on the field and now we are seeing success. Keep the GM in the GM office and off the field.
Cito has brought an exciting brand of baseball back to Toronto. Bunting in the 2nd inning when AJ or Halladay is pitching to scratch out some runs - excellent! Stealing bases to ease the pressure on the guy in the box (so he does not have to fear the double play) - excellent! Telling guys they will play everyday and make them accountable for their results - excellent!
JP wanted to get to involved in how the game should be played via Gibby, that is not happening anymore and now we have a solid team back. 15-13 over the last 18 games and getting better is what I am talking about! Let’s take 2 today and make it 17-13 since Citos arrival!
MW: You are aware that the Jays were, like, 3rd in the league in bunting under Gibby, and stealing a ton of bases, right?
- MatthewWhat is the reasoning to send Litsch down to triple A? Isnt it a little bit early to make that call. Litsch was struggling, but he still had an 8-7 record with a 4.46 ERA. Im not a fan of his, but Purcey is not much better if at all. What a weird decision. I think this decision just shows you how incompetent Ricciardi is as a GM.
MW: Seriously? Sending down a 23 year-old pitcher who is 1-6, 6.12 with an opponents’ batting average of .318 and an opponents’ slugging percentage of .481 since the end of May shows that a GM is incompetent?
- aviMike
I thought you were kidding that Overbay had to stand in the rain at the rain delay, but you are not are you?
I thought that when the rain comes, everybody goes into the dug out
What is the baseball rule on that, can the team provide him with an oversized umbrella, a rain suit, build a portable gazebo like the one you see in home depot…… no ;-) ?
MW: If you can build a portable gazebo within an hour after the game is suspended, then it’s allowed. But good luck getting union carpenters in in that time frame.
- francisJesse Carlson was fantastic in the start of the suspended game but I was thinking, with Doc ready to pitch today anyways, the Jays should have had Roy start this suspended game, complete out the 4 innings (for the save?) and then pitch 5-6 innings (even 7) of the 2nd game, likely leaving the game with a lead of some kind. It’s alike to a 2 wins for the price of 1 start deal! Woulda made all the highlights too!
MW: Why is it likely that he’d have left the second game with a lead? And you think he’s set to go 11 innings?
- Chris in WhitbyWow you’re really milking your joke about Overbay having to stay on base…
It’s not funny and I think you can stop trying to make people laugh at it. Oh, but I think JP laughed at it last night which probably makes you happy?
MW: First of all, funny is subjective. Second of all, at least a few people bought it.
- RaymondFOR THE LOVE OF GOD MIKE (yes I am yelling) PLEASE TELL ME THERE IS NO TRUTH TO THIS:…….
Jays Quietly Discussing Halladay?
By Tim Dierkes [July 24 at 11:24am CST]
According to Dan Graziano of the Newark Star-Ledger:
Roy Halladay is apparently unhappy in Toronto and has let management know it, and management has apparently responded by doing some quiet surveying of teams (such as St. Louis and the Dodgers) that are far, far away from the AL East in an effort to see what it could get for the 2003 Cy Young Award winner.
Apparently, the returns other teams are getting for top-talent pitchers such as CC Sabathia, Rich Harden and Erik Bedard has inspired the Blue Jays to at least find out what it could get for one of the best pitchers in the American League. It remains unlikely that they’d deal him, but you never know.
Halladay has been ridiculously good this year, and he is signed through 2010 at a below-market rate. Doc is the face of the franchise, though, and if anything the Jays might try to extend him further.
MW: It’s awesome that a newspaper report includes the sentence “it remains unlikely that they’d deal him, but you never know.”
- Andrew NMike, a suggestion - if use the game logs feature on baseball-reference.com, you can highlight the last however many games you want and it will do all that quick, confusing math for you.
MW: Yup, I do that a lot.
- Arihi mike
Funny how people tear into jp when he is the only gm who makes himself accessable to the fans unlike other toronto general managers. He is open and honest which is what you can ask for out of a gm. I don’t think he has ever said a player has an “upper body” injury. Although he did say something about a lower back issue with bj ryan when really he blew out his elbow.
What is your opinion on what direction the jays will go if they see themselves out of the race. What changes do you see start happening? i know they brought up purcey do you think they should bring up romero just to get his feet wet? oh ya, not sure if you ever told anyone but who are your top 5 players to watch in the mlb right now.
MW: You think the Jays should bring up Ricky Romero? He’s just starting to produce in AA right now, give him time. Top 5 players to watch in MLB? Good question. Josh Hamilton, Manny Ramirez, John McDonald, Hanley Ramirez, Roy Halladay - just off the top of my head.
- Patel RSome of these anaylsts make up things when they are trying to support thier opinion.
MW: Huh?
- JayFanHey Mike.
If C.C. Sabathia keeps up his dominance against the NL and ends up going 10-1 in his next starts. Would he be an AL or NL Cy Young Candidate?
MW: Neither. Well, maybe National League, but it’s doubtful that he’d be able to win it with less than half a season’s work.
- James from MississaugaHi Mike.
I’d just like to comment on the notion that JP Ricciardi should not be held at fault for the underperformance of many of the key offensive players this season because they were “expected” to perform better.
I think defenders of JP have to pick a position and be consistent. Either JP is to be given credit for the player performances that turn out well AND held responsible for those that don’t, or we say that GM performance is based to a large extent on good/bad luck (and thus the value of a GM to a team is overrated). In other words, you can’t on the one hand argue JP deserves full credit for assembling such a good pitching staff and praise him for drafting guys like Marcum and Litsch, then turn around and say don’t blame JP for the poor performance of the hitters who haven’t produced because the hitter were ‘expected’ to perform better. If the rule is that we are to base our evaluation of the performance of a GM solely on player expectations and not actual results, then it would follow that JP doesn’t deserve much credit for Marcum or Litsch and we should attribute the drafting of these players to simple good fortune since no one ‘expected’ Marcum, a 3rd round pick in 2003, and Litsch, a 24th round pick in 2004, to play as well as they have given an objective assessment of their skills at the time they were drafted.
Personally, I believe that a GM should be given full credit for any and all players who succeed on his team (regardless of where they were drafted or how otherwise acquired) AND take full responsibility for those players who do not perform (especially if such a GM has been in place for 6+ years and has had lots of time to hand pick the players he wants to keep or acquire) with the ultimate, bottom-line measure of success being won-lost record. I think we would all agree that it would be illogical for a son or daughter of ours to argue that his 50% grade on a test is actually not as mediocre as it seems because they aced the true/false and multiple choice parts but simply did poorly on the essay part. Thus, so too is it illogical to argue that JP is doing a pretty good job because the pitching has been great and it’s only the hitting that’s holding the team back. Fans, like owners, media, advertisers, etc. look when all is said and done at the bottom line, and the bottom line is that the Blue Jays are currently a .500 team, just like overall, the grade of the student is not what we would consider impressive.
Another example more analogous to a baseball GM: If a human resources manager for say an information technology firm hires 25 people and 18 turn out to be great employees but the other 7 (who happened to be among the highest paid of the 25) turn out to perform well below expectations such that the operation as a whole produces mediocre results, how much slack will that manager receive from the president of the company if the manager argues well, they were expected to do well, they had great resumes, etc.?
One other point: I believe JP mentioned a while ago that, before the season started, not one other GM or baseball ‘expert’ told him that his offense would not score a lot of runs, ergo, they all must have thought that the offense would be a potent one. No kidding….a GM from a rival club didn’t come up to JP and say “ Gee JP, I think you’ve overrated the guys you have on offense and I don’t think you’re going to score nearly as many runs as you think you will. Well, good luck this year!”
Of course, there are a number of reasons why no GM or other executive of another team would even dream of saying such a thing:
1) They would rightly see it as being rude and in bad taste (not to mention downright foolish) to go out of their way to criticize a peer’s team in that manner (much like you wouldn’t go up to a person and say that their grandmother is unattractive even if you believe it to be true).
2) They would wisely not want to give an opposing team any incentive re. ‘bulletin board’ material that the Jays could post and use to their advantage.
I’m sure these GMs / baseball executives have enough on their plate in trying to produce a winner with their own respective teams without worrying about critiquing other teams and GMs.
The truth is that we don’t know what other GMs thought about the Jays’ offensive prospects and will never know. Maybe a number of them did have suspicions / concerns / beliefs that the Jays’ offense would not be very effective. Maybe not. But I think we can be quite confident that, if certain GMs DID think the Jays were overrated offensively, they were not going to articulate that to JP’s face or call up the baseball beat writer in their town and elaborate on it.
Of course, we can’t look to what fans or the media say in terms of predictions as to how the Jays offense will do before the season started because you and JP have argued that the fans and media don’t know much re. how to analyze baseball talent or put together a team. What fans can see, however, is the end result of all this special GM expertise when they take a look at the standings.
I know the above may seem rather harsh, and I don’t mean to be overly critical of JP or kick a man when he’s down. The basic point I am making is that at the end of the day, the GM’s performance is assessed based on team performance as a whole, which is won-lost record, just like a sales person’s performance is based on sales revenue generated or a surgeon’s performance is based on the quality and results of the operations he performs. If the team turns it around and makes the playoffs this year or finishes within one or two games of a playoff spot, JP should be given full credit and praise for assembling the team that produced this result. If not, I believe whatever result the Jays do end up producing is also JP’s responsibility. That, I think, is a “fair and consistent” position.
MW: Sorry, I fell asleep in the middle of that novella. Anyway, it’s unfair to say that a .500 team is akin to getting 50% on an exam, because a .600 record makes you a dominant, playoff team (97 wins). So in your analysis, getting 60% on an exam would be an A+. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that all a GM has to go on is a player’s track record, and if they don’t live up to that track record, it’s on the player unless there are extenuating circumstances (age, injury, etc.).
- jamesTo Andy:
Wouldn’t you rather just believe JP when he says he wasn’t offered that trade? Personally, I like to think the executives of my favorite teams aren’t idiots.
- SteveTo Steve (post 54)
I would like to think my favourite team isn’t run by an idiot. Absolutely. And I don’t believe that JP is an idiot - I think he’s an average GM who’s in way over his head in the AL East.
The thing is, no GM would admit to turning down a trade like that. Doing so would be an admission of complete and absolute idiocy. Just like Ed Wade (the GM of the Phillies at that time) would be stupid to admit that he offered it in the first place. My point is that JP has shown that he’s not averse to lying to the fans/media. And because of that, I, personally, take everything he says with a grain of salt.
- AndyKind of a head scratcher to send down Litsch. He is above average when compared to other 5th starters around the league. He is better than the D. Cabera, G. Olson, or B. Buress on the Orioles. When I was watching the Orioles telecast, they said that the O’s philosophy was that they had to learn to pitch in MLB and you can’t do that pitching in the minors. I wonder what Litsch is going to learn in AAA?
MW: According to Cito, to throw fewer cutters and more fastballs.
- Jim BDaniel Cabrera reminds me of my high school pitching days. Fast and wayward with no control whatsoever. It’s a shame that teams still prefer someone with a 97mph fastball, no matter how many batters he walks. For a starting pitcher, Cabrera is a joke.
By the way are u a big fan of RF stat?
MW: You threw 97 in high school? And I’m a huge fan of neither RF nor ZR.
- Beburg aka The relief pitcherHey Mike,
With all the JP bashing on this blog, who in the organization does he have that he consults with on baseball matters, any mentor type figures we never hear of?. Surely it is not Godfrey.
- Al
MW: There are no senior guys (older and more experience than J.P.) now that Bobby Mattick is gone.
- AlOf course I also forgot about Liz! Not only is Jesse Litsch better than most 5th starters, he would be the second best in Baltimore!
MW: But look at Litsch’s last nine starts.
- Jim BMW: You are aware that the Jays were, like, 3rd in the league in bunting under Gibby, and stealing a ton of bases, right?
Mike, a week ago, we were hovering around 15th in the league in SBs and I know we have been stealing more under Cito, so stealing a ton under Gibby, like many of our your callers you may have to rethink how “extreme” you are sounding, unless of course you have a unique definition of “ton”
The point around bunting is that Cito is also trying to do it early in games to get a lead (when one of our aces is on) or scratch out a run, from what I remember Gibby did most of his bunting late in games when we were getting really desparate to score..
Also, in terms of hitting, if Gibby was here, we would not see Inglett and Lind as everyday players, Eckstein riding the pine, Overbay finally being moved up in the order, Mcdonald playing 3 or 4 games in a row, Zaun getting placed as backup etc., I won’t reiterate some of the other general things like Wells, Lind, rios etc. praising the new approach under Cito..
I know Gibby was a JP hire and a JP puppet, but lets not defend to the point of sounding silly..the other thing I will remind you of, is I will never forget when someone called ealry this year and said “why dont we bring Cito back” and you quickly said “you dont want to see Cito back” very adamantly and went on to point out how bad he was as a manager after the world series ring. Yet, you say Gibby should not have got fired should still be manager? Do you realize that sometimes common sense and rationality escapes you?
MW: All the time.
- Matthew“MW: Every GM in pro sports lies to the fans all the time.”
Obviously, but not every GM goes on the record as saying they are lying to the fans and that they think this is ok….just as not every GM goes on the radio and speaks their mind about certain players…ie Adam Dunn.
MW: Right - J.P.’s lies are worse because he admits to some of them. You’d prefer just to constantly be lied to, then be lied to about being lied to.
- KDMW: He’s more honest than most people in sports, I think.
MW: Every GM in pro sports lies to the fans all the time.
What? Which is it? He may be more honest but that does not mean he’s honest. Maybe he’s just not as much of a liar?
MW: Isn’t that what I said?
- KDSo when Wells comes back how about a lineup that starts:
Rios
Lind
Wells
This has been a good 3 games for the guys. They’ve hit well, and we are back to .500!
I haven’t said this for ages:
Yea Jays!!!!
MW: It could very well happen.
- reyesHi Mike.
MW: “Sorry, I fell asleep in the middle of that novella. Anyway, it’s unfair to say that a .500 team is akin to getting 50% on an exam, because a .600 record makes you a dominant, playoff team (97 wins). So in your analysis, getting 60% on an exam would be an A+. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that all a GM has to go on is a player’s track record, and if they don’t live up to that track record, it’s on the player unless there are extenuating circumstances (age, injury, etc.).”
First off, you’re right - my post was quite long…my apologies.
To your points:
1)If you don’t like 50% test result figure, substitute whatever the class average grade was for the test (60%, 65%, other)? I think my argument still stands: We would not find acceptable an excuse by the test writer that though their performance is mediocre, we should give them special credit because they excelled in certain sections of the test - the bottom line result (overall test score) is what counts.
2) If “…all a GM has to go on is a player’s track record” and there’s not much more to it, why are GMs paid so much money and considered to have such valuable expertise? Seems to me you could find many people who would be willing to work for far less who could follow a simple checklist based on a players track record to acquire players if that were the case:
a) Check readily available stats to see if the player has produced in the recent past and is of an age that he will likely produce similar numbers going forward.
b) Check his injury history.
c) Get him to submit to a physical by a team doctor.
d) If there are no significant health issues with the player, sign him.
Either a GM’s job in terms of assessing talent requires certain special skills / expertise that aren’t obvious or it does not. If not, then it wouldn’t be worth paying GMs big money based on the claim or belief that they have special talents in this area when a good accountant who could manage a budget and read player statistics could, on average, do just as well.
MW: It’d be awesome to see someone try that.
- james#57. I’ve thrown 88mph in high school. I was the Daniel Cabrera of my team, but i was a reliever who would only throw two-seam fastballs. I’ve drilled quite a few guys and as a teenager I’d take pride in that. No wonder why my baseball career never progressed.
- Beburg aka The relief pitcherHey Mike I was trying to think who might be available this winter in terms of potential dh signings. Maybe Jim Thome or Jermaine Dye?? How about Jason Giambi?? Are any of these guys free agents this off season?? Anyone else you can think of that could fit the bill for dh next season?? Thanks again Mike for the insight.
Take care.
MW: Thome and Giambi are free agents, Dye isn’t.
- TroyThe demotion of Litsch is no surprise at all. He is not the first nor the last young guy to go back to the minors. I like the kid, but it is painful at times watching him struggle on the mound. Albeit, he also had a couple of bad breaks behind him, defensively in his last couple of starts.
Despite his pitching woes, I feel Litsch had become a bit “non-chalant” as to his approach to the game. I state this based only on what I have seen of him in the dugout and on the “08 Jays” show at the break. Seems a bit too relaxed and comfortable with his position on an MLB club! Maybe he was thinking he has it made already - who knows.
Further to that, he pitches much, much better with less weight - he came up in 2007 at 195 lbs and is presently showing at 215 lbs. That’s a 20 lb difference - a huge difference for a guy of his build and an even bigger burden (I feel) on him as a pitcher. Guys like, AJ or BJ carry that kind of weight well - not a Jesse Litsch - he shows it as being a bit too “pudgy”.
Just my opinion - and I hope he knows what it is he has to work out. I’m sure, I hope this is a wake up call for the young man and he comes back to his form. I for one, don’t think he pitched way over his head in 2007 as some have said. He has good stuff and good control. Get the two seamer working, loose a few pounds, then, look out!
All the best to you Jesse - you will be back and likely be much more appreciative of playing in the “bigs”!
- Bob -Does Overbay actually have to stand there all night? If so, is there someone supervising him while hes there?
MW: Yes, and a member of the umpiring crew has to stay, but he can sit in the dugout.
- Jesse“the fans’ perception has NOTHING to do with whether or not someone keeps his job.”
Of all the ridiculous things you’ve said, and you’ve said a lot(as everyone does, including myself), that is by far the most dumbfounding thing I’ve ever heard you say.
MW: Sorry about that. But it’s true. If front offices listened to the fans on personnel matters, there would be chaos.
- Dan WDo you think Kyle Lohse can float? Is he made of wood?
No, but he weighs more than a duck.
Funny how Graziano and Stark have heard completely opposite things on Halladay.
“Sorry, I fell asleep in the middle of that novella.”
Still not sure why someone who has one of the most amazing jobs out there feels the need to take shots like this when performing said job. If someone finds it funny, that’s cool, but to me it’s just rude.
- Dan WMike,
It was finally nice to hear Bluejay Broadcasters say what I have been saying all along, that the way to GM a ball club is to pattern themselves after the Athletics and Twins , keep dealing veteran aging players for young studs. Trading Roy Halladay is NOT a fantasy baseball mentality as you had stated on one of your shows, it is a shrewd, prudent decision. After all, the players the Jays could get back for Roy would make this organization instant contenders. But this is Toronto and the fans would rather have aging celebrities than being successful.
MW: Trading Roy Halladay would not make the Jays instant contenders. It’s a shrewd, prudent decision to trade Halladay after the 2009 season if the team is going nowhere, but not now.
- Jeff C.Overbay never had to stay on 3rd base all night. Thats not the rule. Don’t listen to Mike. Don’t be so gullable.
MW: Says who?
- Jeff C.I can’t believe in 72 posts, nobody made mention of the best part of this post-game, the discussion of “Wilner-isms”. Who doesn’t love a quick Halladay game, where Mike gets to “extendo it up”?
- Dan#12 and #69
I understand what you’re trying to say, that the front office can’t listen to the fans on every issue. They can’t keep Reed Johnson because he has grit and they can’t start Johnny Mac 162 games a year just because he’s fun to watch. That doesn’t mean the fans have no effect. I’ll also point out that Bob in #12 seemed to be talking about JP’s job, not the players jobs.
Nothing is above the fans because nothing is above money. Every decision that Bud Selig, Ted Rogers, Tony Viner, or JP Ricciardi makes is going to be influenced by money. Money that comes from the fans, and the fans only. MLB does not inherently create anything of value. They’re not out there building homes or growing vegetables, they’re creating a product of entertainment. Unlike food and shelter, people don’t need to purchase entertainment. When they do purchase entertainment, or allow entertainment to be funded through advertising by spending time on the product, we call them “fans”.
People have generally agreed(yourself included I believe) that it’s not Paul Godfrey’s job to build a winner, it’s his job to create revenue and gain exposure for Rogers. We also know that stretches down to JP in at least some ways. JP obviously wants to build a winner and that’s his main focus, but whether he likes it or not every decision he makes is pressured by public opinion because it has to go through Paul Godfrey. If he wants to release Brad Wilkerson, that’s one thing. If he wants to trade Roy Halladay, that’s another.
Whether it’s Halladay’s job, JP’s job, or Cito Gaston’s job, the decisions are based on how many fans are likely to show up. If that wasn’t the case, Ted Rogers would get his best friend to take over the Jays and it wouldn’t matter if the Jays drew 200 fans to every game instead of 20,000. So if the fans decide with their wallets that they don’t want JP to be the GM anymore, then JP won’t be the GM anymore. There’s obviously many things that go into whether a fan buys a ticket, but their confidence in their GM to field a winning team is a factor, and if it gets to the point where the majority of fans despise the man and have zero confidence in him, it will show at the box office.
In short, I’m mostly just echoing what Blair has said, that it’s a consumer confidence issue. To say that “the fans’ perception has NOTHING to do with whether or not someone keeps his job.” is absolutely absurd.
MW: I respectfully disagree. You’re right that if the Dome was empty, heads would roll, but that’s not going to happen. So long as the Jays continue to have winning seasons, continue to be able to sell hope in the winter and continue to see gains or at least no drop-offs in attendance, the Rogers muckety-mucks have no reason to make changes at the top.
- Dan W